My Husband Is Defending Democracy

Some of you talk utter rubbish sometimes. You are talking about a war, and people's lives. He broke his contract - so good on him! More soldiers should do this.

Anyone out there who feels what they are doing is wrong; open your eyes, forget about the brainwashing crap of protecting your country, and quit being a porn in a game of power and corruption.

Break your contracts!



[edit on 28-1-2005 by paranoia]

Originally posted by Britguy
Now, suppose the Prez institutes martial law and orders those same troops to shoot Americans, on US soil, simply because they oppose him.
Would that be ok too, because they are still ordered to do so by the Prez?
Those being ordered to fight must think for themselves instead of blindly following orders, especially in todays world of corporate-economic wars, where the victors are the boardroom boys.

Obviously you have no idea what the oath entails. Have you ever read it, or read the contract that is signed to go alone with it? Have you ever studied the Uniform Code of Military Justice? If you had done any of those things you would not be making such ridiculous statements.

No member of the armed forces will ever be penalized for disobeying an unlawful order. In the case of your example, that would be an unlawful order and no punishment could be passed out for not following it.

But who decides what and what isn't an illegal order or act?

Yeah, these guys know the risks involved with joining the armed forces but why is it to be any different from any other contract. If my employer ordered me to do something that broke my personal moral codes then I would refuse. Same in this case. The guy is making a stand against what he sees as immoral acts. Ok, it took experience and participation to make him realise that but he has shown more guts in voicing his objections than those who blindly follow, and certainly those who sent him there.

Originally posted by COOL HAND
Obviously you have no idea what the oath entails. Have you ever read it, or read the contract that is signed to go alone with it? Have you ever studied the Uniform Code of Military Justice? If you had done any of those things you would not be making such ridiculous statements.

an oath you say?
what about the oath that the german ss soldiers took when they joined the infamous waffen ss squads?
to fight and die for their "fatherland"?
to kill at will?
to slaughter millions of jewish people?
that kind of "oath"?
he also sweared to fight for his country and obey orders.
so what is the diffrence between him and the averege u.s. soldier?

and if you would meet this ss soldier, who has seen too much and has said "i have enough!" and doesnt want to go back, would you say to him that he is a coward also, since he doesnt want to kill anymore for his "fatherland"?

Originally posted by Souljah
an oath you say?
what about the oath that the german ss soldiers took when they joined the infamous waffen ss squads?
to fight and die for their "fatherland"?
to kill at will?
to slaughter millions of jewish people?
that kind of "oath"?
he also sweared to fight for his country and obey orders.
so what is the diffrence between him and the averege u.s. soldier?

and if you would meet this ss soldier, who has seen too much and has said "i have enough!" and doesnt want to go back, would you say to him that he is a coward also, since he doesnt want to kill anymore for his "fatherland"?

Are you now trying to say that anyone who joins the military, and takes the oath that it entails can be comared to an SS member? Are you insane?

The oaths that they took are vastly different from the ones that are taken today. Have you ever read the text of the oath that the SS took and then compared it to what the members of today's military take?

Originally posted by Britguy
But who decides what and what isn't an illegal order or act?

The same laws that govern every person in the United States.

Yeah, these guys know the risks involved with joining the armed forces but why is it to be any different from any other contract. If my employer ordered me to do something that broke my personal moral codes then I would refuse. Same in this case. The guy is making a stand against what he sees as immoral acts. Ok, it took experience and participation to make him realise that but he has shown more guts in voicing his objections than those who blindly follow, and certainly those who sent him there.

If it took so much for him to make this "stand," then why did he wait until the last week before his unit was to ship out? Surely if he so much thought in it he would have submitted his paperwork sooner.

i come here to read , and i thought this place was diff from all the other sites, of crasey
people wanting blood, war and hate, ATS has gone way down hill now.

each of us make a choice about who or what they want to be , and thanks to our
dead forefather, we can do this, but in order for us to be humans we need to learn from
the mistakes of the past and grow to be more human, this thread should be taken down,
if we the people of the US and others around the world can't realize that war is hell, not
something that those of us who don't fight, know anything of. we are not growing and
learning , and if you all really think that some one should be shot because he stops
doing something that is wrong, no matter how long it took him to fig it out.
we really don't need ATS anymore, because, were not talking anymore were getting
ready for ww3.

If we (humans) Took all the guns ,planes,tanks,ships,boombs put them into a pile in the nearest town square.Who would fight the wars?
How manny have had there sons come home in a box on eather side .
how manny more will die ? We of earth wast our resourses on on humm.
When do you get tired of killing ,tired of threats when has war ever begot anything but war.
you say we won the war? Thousands dead econime in ruines people no longer supporting the goverments. For ten thousand years now this has been mans leagace .It is pain fully oves to me we as a whole will never learn and Ill have to watch my sons or there sons kill or be killed.
In a million years who will be here to read mans history ? With our very nature its not very likly we will.

bob marley
war

What life has taught me
I would like to share with
Those who want to learn...

Until the philosophy which hold one race
Superior and another inferior
Is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned
Everywhere is war, me say war

That until there are no longer first class
And second class citizens of any nation
Until the colour of a man's skin
Is of no more significance than the colour of his eyes
Me say war

That until the basic human rights are equally
Guaranteed to all, without regard to race
Dis a war

That until that day
The dream of lasting peace, world citizenship
Rule of international morality
Will remain in but a fleeting illusion
To be persued, but never attained
Now everywhere is war, war

And until the ignoble and unhappy regimes
that hold our brothers in Angola, in Mozambique,
South Africa sub-human bondage
Have been toppled, utterly destroyed
Well, everywhere is war, me say war

War in the east, war in the west
War up north, war down south
War, war, rumours of war

And until that day, the African continent
Will not know peace, we Africans will fight
We find it necessary and we know we shall win
As we are confident in the victory

Of good over evil, good over evil, good over evil
Good over evil, good over evil, good over evil

We all know what was in Bob Marley's peace pipe

Originally posted by Pisky

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
Well, I spent 11 1/2 years in the military myself and yes I am not proud of all the things that I have done

Then why did you do it ?
Please note that 'I was just following orders' was proved an insufficient defence during the Nuremberg trials and is just as invalid now.

The part that I was refering to was a three week stiint that I did in Beruit just after the marine baracks While I was there, we were pinned down by a sniper who was on the rooftop across the way. I got a "lucky" shot and was able to bring him down. He was the only person that I have shot / killed and he was no more than a teenager. I look at taking him down as either him or me, but... he was my first and only kill so I feel bad about it. Kind of hard to explain. Check with a cop after they have made their first kill while on duty. It is much the same thing.

It is sometimes difficult to try to explain to non-veterans how vets feel about their service, both the good parts and the bad parts.

Gen. Douglas Macarthur once said something profound on the subject:

"The soldier, above all other people, prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars".

Do not assume that just because a vet is proud of their service, or supports the current government and their policiies, that the service man doesn't know or despise the horrors that war creates, that which he must experience firsthand.

Originally posted by centurion1211
P.S. My stepson finishes Army basic training in 1 week. Where's he headed next, is unknown (by us) at this time.

If I had to guess, I'd say....let's see....hmmmm....IRAQ! Kind of a no brainer, though.

souljah, why don't you put down your gun in your avatar, or is war for an idea you believe in OK ????

but you also swear to obey the lawful orders of those superiors, including the democratically-elected Commander-in-Chief

I think we just found his loophole....

If his lawyers can argue that Iraq is an unlawful war order, then he just may have a leg to stand on here...

More of an intellectual exercise than anything, as imho he's made his bed and now must lie in it....

Souljah correct me if Im wrong, but did you say the oath of a SS Nazi is no different than the oath of a US Soldier?

If that what you meant, you owe every American soldier, sailor and airman in ATS an apology. Thats way over the top.


Maximu§

Yes, that is the whole point. People who decide they're not going to fight this war do so because they think it's an illegal war. For example: If the president ordered you to kill people in Chicago, are you going to do it, just because you took an oath? It could happen one day.

What was the Nazi oath?

[edit on 28-1-2005 by Moe Foe]

Maybe we should rewrite the oath.....

I do solemly swear to accept the paycheck that uncles sam offers me for my services to defend this great nation.

But if should I be asked to risk my life, that I be allowed to sue the government for putting me in harms way.

I agree to to my duty provided that all enemies are properly barcoded and marked for extinciton...each one carrying a red rose and a flashlight so there will be no mistake.

What a crock. We are talking about mans will here. We are talking about oppression and enslavement of men and or women. America looks, with men into situations that are not visible to the average citizen. Does anyone think for one minute that we enjoy sending our soldiers into harms way?

An oath is an oath. He took it. He must carry it out. He is not the commander. We the people have spoken in terms of putting men into positions to make these decisions. When this man is in a position of power, then he can opt not to serve for the choice will be in his power. Until then, he has lied to us and is even admitting to it. He took an Oath. Now stand by your word. This land is your land, this land is our land. And when you signed up, we took you for your word. Did you only do it for the money?>



[edit on 28-1-2005 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 28-1-2005 by HIFIGUY]

Actuall, American troops have been used against it's own citizens. Many of you may not remember but back on May 4, 1970, the National Guard was used to fire upon students at kent State University who were protesting the bombing of Cambodia. There were also rumours that Kent State was also testing chemical weapons. Here is a link to an article on it. America Kills Its Children
Even before then, Shortly after we became a country in 1869 American trops were called up to again fire upon Americans when the US decided to tax homemade brew The Whiskey War.
Let's not forget the Civil War.
So yes, the US military have been called upon to take action against it's citizens. Once you have sworn your oath when entering the military, you are required to follow the orders of your superiors. If you are given orders that you feel are illegal or immoral, as a member of the military, you voice this opinion to your superior. You log a complaint to call for an investigation, but in the long run, you follow orders.
A military member who refuses to follow orders can and will be prosecuted as per military law (which is very different from civilian). This is covered in Article 92 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
This person, is required to follow the legal orders of his superiors. In the case in started this thread, the man after 10 years in the military, saw the light and found that he could no longer take another's life. This ideal is fantastic and I applaud him for this outlook. I condemn him for how he took to break his solemn oath to fight / defend our country. He was given an order to go to Iran. This order in one way or another came from the President. If the order is to be considered illegal, that is something for our legislature and our courts systems to decide not this military member. If he had an issue with going to Iran, he could have gone the route of "CO" Contiencious Objector. His superiors will take that into consideration and may have even reassigned him to another post so that he would not have a conflict with his beliefs. To go outside and to use both the civilian courts and the media, is deplorable and highly dishonorable of bhim to do.
There are steps that he could of / should of used instead of what he has done.

country and ended up defending someone elses who doesn't want him there. Just like Vietnam....