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Unions suck

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posted on Jan, 29 2005 @ 07:01 AM
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It seems some people know little or even sweet FA about how worker collectivisation and the unions works these days.

Certainly the European experience is one of targets and 'team bonusing' and workers caring very much whether members of their 'team' under-perform or not.....not forgetting the preference management has in many industries for dealing with only one (or a few) workers' representitive 'bodies' (cos most management, despite the US exceptions, is grown up enough to know this is preferable to chaos).

The idea that some people think todays oligarchical and/or monopolistic super-corporations are a healthy idea when those same people go on to proclaim such a deep love of 'competition' and the 'free markets' is also quite amusing if illogical.....

...and naturally there's not a word about the vast amounts of weath (the greatest share of the world's weath no less) acquired regardless of effort or 'input' either, hmmm?


[edit on 29-1-2005 by sminkeypinkey]




posted on Jan, 29 2005 @ 07:28 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
Ok now your accuseing people of not doing any work?
WRONG
The union understands that if you dont work, you aint gona be there.
Your incident carseller seems a bit......far fetched.




Why would my incident be farfetched? I could not get a raise based on my ability, because the Union had a contract stating how long you had to be employed to get a raise. A raise based on time served, not merit.

My story is not exceptional, it is the rule. My story also pales, when compared to others I heard about Unions. ie...halfway unloading a truck, then leaving the driver sitting there for an hour, because it's lunchtime.

[edit on 29-1-2005 by Carseller4]

[edit on 29-1-2005 by Carseller4]

[edit on 29-1-2005 by Carseller4]



posted on Jan, 29 2005 @ 12:09 PM
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The union understands that if you dont work, you aint gona be there.
Your incident carseller seems a bit......far fetched.

No Trust me.. He is telling the truth. I worked for Kroger too....Everyone was paid based on months/years of service. Every 6 months you got a raise until the 4th year. Then it was 1 raise a year. No Merit raises.... I was, and had the reports,audits,etc to prove it, the most effective cashier, cash office cashier, supervisor, etc... But many cashiers who have worked there longer than me were making up to four dollars more an hour.. And really couldnt do the simplest of tasks.. Im not saying they should be making less... I'm just saying I should have been making more

That is where I have a problem with unions. Other than that I appreciate having someone to represent me, fight for better healthcare and all that good stuff. I just think they oughtta let the more effecient workers get rewarded.



posted on Jan, 29 2005 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by sleeper
Like carseller pointed out unions treat everyone the same-----and everyone gets the same pay----those who work and those who don't.

Same with the left, they believe in equality in pay regardless of output-----in effect the masses are equal to cattle because individuality is stamped out-----and the few leaders are equal to kings----to be served by the cattle.

The left and the unions both hate corporations----so in reality they are one and the same.


100% wrong, people in unions don't all make the same money.... the amount of money you make depends on the position and your ability.

You just want corporations to have full power over the worker, even to the point where the corporation controls what wage they are given.. so they could pay an American factory worker 10 cents an hour. That is your dream land. Why don't you go move to China and get a job there? I'm sure you will be crying back to the USA and it's unions.



posted on Jan, 29 2005 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by Carseller4
Why would my incident be farfetched?

Sounds far fetched to me but hey more than one people on here seem to agree with what you say and back it then I suppose its true.


I could not get a raise based on my ability, because the Union had a contract stating how long you had to be employed to get a raise. A raise based on time served, not merit.

My story is not exceptional, it is the rule. My story also pales, when compared to others I heard about Unions. ie...halfway unloading a truck, then leaving the driver sitting there for an hour, because it's lunchtime.

Well i supposed its another double edged sword isnt it...
It would be good for long term servers and bad for short term ones.



posted on Jan, 29 2005 @ 05:25 PM
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I hired some union carpenters to build me a house-----paid them almost double what the non-union carpenters asked.

I wanted the best carpenters to build my house----why cut corners----so I paid more----the job was so bad I thought the codes inspectors were going to make me tear it down.

I had to hire the non union guys to bale me out.

Not only that half way through the job the union carpenters upped their price and walked off the job until I paid it.

I never heard of anyone doing that before (after agreeing and signing a contract) but what the heck do you do? The materials were lying all over the lot---what wasn't being stolen was warping in the sun----so I paid.

If you need a major ream job----hire union.


[edit on 29-1-2005 by sleeper]



posted on Jan, 29 2005 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by sleeper

I hired some union carpenters to build me a house-----paid them almost double what the non-union carpenters asked.

I wanted the best carpenters to build my house----why cut corners----so I paid more----the job was so bad I thought the codes inspectors were going to make me tear it down.

I had to hire the non union guys to bale me out.

Not only that half way through the job the union carpenters upped their price and walked off the job until I paid it.

I never heard of anyone doing that before (after agreeing and singing a contract) but what the heck do you do? The materials were lying all over the lot---what wasn't being stolen was warping in the sun----so I paid.

If you need a major ream job----hire union.

One incident, do you want me to count how many times a company with out a union has screwed its workers over?
Hundereds.



posted on Jan, 29 2005 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

One incident, do you want me to count how many times a company with out a union has screwed its workers over?
Hundereds.


One incident like I would ever hire union again so that they could have another shot at me.

One incident for me----every time I tell that story I hear other stories just as bad and some much worse.

I bet if I start a tread and ask about union horror stories there would be lots of replies.

You don't hear a lot about the union because people are afraid of the union thugs.



posted on Jan, 29 2005 @ 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by sleeper

One incident like I would ever hire union again so that they could have another shot at me.

One incident for me----every time I tell that story I hear other stories just as bad and some much worse.

I bet if I start a tread and ask about union horror stories there would be lots of replies.

You don't hear a lot about the union because people are afraid of the union thugs.

Ohhhh the union thugs now, you really do sound like joseph goebbels.
Do you read his books?
What about company stories where they ruin lives and use thugs to hurt people.
Corporations hurt people everyday that are hard working and decent people now tell me why they are better than union workers?

You start topics to just spread propaganad, not listening or careing to the other side and just repeating the same thing over and over...."left is bad. left is evil. comunism wants to control your lives." I am for one sick of it!

You dont even defend coporations there so you must admit that they are just as bad and worst.



posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 01:30 AM
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Well Sleeper you should be very happy to hear that our President is currently trying to deunionize all federal agencies in home land security.
Because we all know how lazy those Coast Guard union slobs are...



posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 04:50 AM
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I think most if not all of sleeper's convulted arguments in this thread, and indeed most others, have been quite effectively discredited. This thread is a waste of space.



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 06:31 PM
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If my father saw this thread he's chew it up and spit it out.
The union he belong to has helped save him from losing his job.
Sure there is some bs in it, what doesn't have bs mixed in?

The ying yang, there is good in every evil, and evil in every good...

It's what happens...

Unions help the people survive against the negative's of corpratism.



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by TrueLies
If my father saw this thread he's chew it up and spit it out.
The union he belong to has helped save him from losing his job.
Sure there is some bs in it, what doesn't have bs mixed in?

The ying yang, there is good in every evil, and evil in every good...

It's what happens...

Unions help the people survive against the negative's of corpratism.



A worker that needs a union to help him save a job, probably isn't much of a worker. If I needed my job saved, I would probably look for another job instead of getting outside help anyway.



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 02:47 AM
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Carseller, unions were founded originally because individually, the worker cannot stand up against the corporate machine. If a worker wanted a raise or had a disagreement, the factory he worked for (unions started out of the industrial revolution) would just fire him and hire someone else. There is power in numbers. Collectively, the working class have the ultimate power: the power to completely shut down production, to bring the economy to a grinding halt. The constant campaign of intimidation and sabotage that the capitalist wages against the worker is necessary in order to maintain the status quo.

Your comments are not only ridiculous, but an insult to those who refused to be pushed around by the early capitalists.



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 10:10 AM
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Companies never get rid of their good employees----they do get rid of dead weight.

Companies are not welfare institutions----they have to make a profit to stay in business so that they can keep the other employee on the pay roll.

The left hates that kind of logic----can't understand it----and we don't expect them too.

Just wipe their noses, pat them on the back and send them back out to the play ground.



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by sleeper
Companies never get rid of their good employees----they do get rid of dead weight.


- Where do you get this stuff from?

Nice theory but the reality is quite different in many many places.


Companies are not welfare institutions----they have to make a profit to stay in business so that they can keep the other employee on the pay roll.


- They are also human constructs with the possibility of the entire range of human failings and petty vices people can bring as well as the good.
Some firms are great and have little need for a union and others have allowed such an appalling culture to develop that a union is nothing short of vital.

In many instances a union is completely in the workforce's interests regardless of the state of industrial relations, many personal benefits can come the workers way in such organisations in things like favourable insurance deals, extra discounts with banks etc etc.

You like to paint the 'left' as consumed by a class war but your own narrow ideas shout loud and clear that that is exactly where you are coming from seeker.


The left hates that kind of logic----can't understand it----and we don't expect them too.


- The right hates that kind of logic-----can't understand it----and we don't expect them to.



Just wipe their noses, pat them on the back and send them back out to the play ground.


- Yes the playground, indeed.

So a union-firm once ripped you off. Big deal.
Happens all the time - except that the union part is entirely incidental and it doesn't happen anything like most of the time (so stop trying to imply it does).

How about if a bank shafted you? Would you go all 'red' then?


What small personal experience are you next to tout here as one of life's great universal truths Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss seeker-troll, hmm?



[edit on 2-2-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 12:39 PM
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That's bs and you know it, sleeper. Do yourself a favor and watch Office Space. That is the way the business world works. They crap can the good employees that happen to receive bigger paychecks and bring in entry level college grads for substantially lower money. They DO get rid of good employees. How about downsizing? I can garuantee you it isn't just the bad employees they get rid of. It is normally the high dollar guys they get rid of if they are looking to cut cost.

Unions have their place. They are still useful. And it prevents the true ugly head of capitalism from coming out. I am no socialist, but I am no "no restriction capitalist".



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 01:13 PM
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edit: no need to speak, everybody else summed it up nicely...


sleeper.... Get an education on this subject will ya...



[edit on 2-2-2005 by TrueLies]



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 02:56 PM
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If a company does not want me for whatever reason-----why would I want to work for them?

I have seen office space----its’ typical left propaganda.

Start your own company and then see how easy it is to stay in business while keeping everyone happy----the IRS----employees----stock holders----the bank that holds your loans----the state bureaucracy----the county bureaucracy----the city bureaucracy----the federal bureaucracy.

Children have no idea what their parents go through----until they become parents themselves.

You can’t judge a company until you have created your own company----and then everyone and their grandmother tells you how to run it.

Try it.



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 03:58 PM
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Originally posted by sleeper

Start your own company and then see how easy it is to stay in business while keeping everyone happy----the IRS----employees----stock holders----the bank that holds your loans----the state bureaucracy----the county bureaucracy----the city bureaucracy----the federal bureaucracy.


Whatever happened to keeping yourself happy??

and btw, when you've worked at gm for 26 years, you tend to get a better retirement package, and when your only 10 years away from retiring why would you just up and leave to start your own business when all you've ever known was manual labour??




You can’t judge a company until you have created your own company----and then everyone and their grandmother tells you how to run it.


And you can't judge a person thats worked in a factory until you have been in the position for 26+ plus years and close to retirement...






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