Dangerous Philosophy: Contemplating Suicide

a reply to: pheonix358

Or maybe the universe would regard your suicide as an act of selfishness? Contexts, of course, matter. A father who leaves a family creates the conditions for future suffering for his now bereaved children.

Similarly, anyone hurt by the suicide would be hurting because of the failure of the suicide victim to internalize the addage "we are all in this together".

It is an act of desperation, of loneliness, and of unhappiness.

a reply to: Wang Tang
You make a good point, I suppose. Though, there are many more takes on this. I never heard that quote from Albert Camus, or probably did and forgot about it, so looked it up and him. Seems he was a bit proponent and a philosophy called absurdism, then latter read or re-read as i am sure I read it somewhere that he died in a car crash and they found a unused train ticket which was going to take before going the car route. So it seems he lived and died by his own creed, aint life absurd?

But then again ain't nothing new, all kinds of # happens to all kinds of people, things not necessarily need make sense in life, yet we find yourself constantly fighting an ever losing battle, and ever surmounting war against the absurd and just plain ol dum luck. Random chance will kill us all before our time that is most likely, and who makes and decides whose time has come anyways?

Definitely not God as that is just another absurd creation to keep the absurd nature of reality at bay, as is pretty much everything else and believe system along with philosophies, cults, religions, governments, anything and everything seems to be pretty much created to keep the chaos of the absurd and random chance at bay, or anything else humans have created, in reality what we have achieved here in our societies is a form of mental reactionary self indulging justifications, which we like to give all kids of grand names and labels to.

In fact? That fact may even be a universal factor depending on not if there are other species out there in the void and what not. I am quite sure that many a species have thought themselves the masters of there world only to have that theory debunked by random passing asteroids or even solar flairs.

Basically when you think about it, were pretty much dead anyways, you know stretch that time line a bit and the results start to look mighty different, like another said in this thread on a long enough timeline all of us and anything survival rate drops to 0. Life is a zero sum game, nobody and nothing gets out of life alive. So why take it so serious?

Who knows, probably lots of reasons, some even that would be way out there straight out of the twilight zone. But in all to answer Camus question. The answer to suicide and why people do it would be, or at least my answer would be....A hell of a whole lot of things, issues, problems, and a train load of other things. I'm not here to give details, seems like a hell of a lot of work for something that may just be a dam broad subject.

As for suicide being stigma, and frowned upon, seems to be right as nobody wants to think about sad subjects. But then again, nothing can be gained unless your talking about specifics, for instance a kid that kills himself or herself for being bullied at school or other some such, that seems like it can be cured in time and its a bit posthumous to kill oneself over something like that. But others are not so clear cut, so who knows. Painting with a broad brush here is what I am saying. And as we know society and people do so like to paint with a broad brush.

originally posted by: Astrocyte
a reply to: pheonix358

Or maybe the universe would regard your suicide as an act of selfishness? Contexts, of course, matter. A father who leaves a family creates the conditions for future suffering for his now bereaved children.

Similarly, anyone hurt by the suicide would be hurting because of the failure of the suicide victim to internalize the addage "we are all in this together".

It is an act of desperation, of loneliness, and of unhappiness.

That poses an unending list of what ifs?

Perhaps the suicide of the father is what grows the children's souls in this go around.

Surely if we did choose this, then we can also end it. How do you know the death is premature? Perhaps the reason for this turn of the wheel of life is to get to the state of suicide to learn what it is like?

Do you know what is the meaning of life?

It is my life to choose.

P

a reply to: Wang Tang

Dangerous Philosophy: Contemplating Suicide. Whats the point?

Thought is father to the deed

originally posted by: Astrocyte
Or maybe the universe would regard your suicide as an act of selfishness? Contexts, of course, matter. A father who leaves a family creates the conditions for future suffering for his now bereaved children.

Similarly, anyone hurt by the suicide would be hurting because of the failure of the suicide victim to internalize the addage "we are all in this together".

It is an act of desperation, of loneliness, and of unhappiness.

"That's so selfish of you!"
"You just want the easy way out for yourself!"
"Didn't you consider the loved ones you will irreversibly hurt by taking your life?"

While these harsh judgements are often effective at guilting those contemplating suicide into postponing their potential suicide, they are certainly not effective at tackling the root of the problem: why the person wants their life to end.

The "we are all in this together" argument is illogical: if other people cannot feel the very real internal, continuous and potent pain felt by the person contemplating taking their own life, they have no right to judge that person for taking their life.

There are actions and reactions in life, and the reaction of loved ones to the person committing suicide is their own responsibility to bear.

originally posted by: Wang Tang
It is your first true act of free will in your life, for you did not choose to be born, but you have the power to choose when you die.

Nonsense!
Some are naturally self destructive.
There is one moment in all lives where we take our final breath.
That moment cannot ever be hastened or avoided.
No moment of existence can.
The notion of 'free-will/choice' is no more than a vain 'appearance'.

Albert Camus once said “There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy.

That is one opinion, there are others.
The 'judging' of whether life is worth living, or not, is evidence of insanity.
Everyone has thought, at one time or other, about suicide. Quite natural.
And if you act on those thoughts because you 'believe' them, is insanity.
And the philosophy of insanity is that you do not base philosophies on insanity! *__-

All 'value' exists in the eye (thoughts/ego/vanity) of the beholder!!
Being Happy doesn't depend on imagining 'value' in 'life'!
Unconditional Happiness is an unconditional Virtue of unconditional Love/Enlightenment!

originally posted by: Astrocyte

In short, suicide is a decision which happens in an evolutionary context that is disturbed. I do not mean to say that such a person isn't suffering or wanting "release" - otherwise, why pursue suicide? Only that such a thought is so deeply, deeply fundamentally related to growing up in a society that cultivates at a very deep structural level a dissociation of the Human spirit from its lived, embodied reality.

This is a very thought provoking statement. I do agree that our evolutionary context is disturbed. However, this is a byproduct of consciousness. It is consciousness that gives us the ability to dissociate the Human spirit from its lived, embodied reality. And while it seems Western Capitalism has amplified our suicidal tendencies, the act of suicide has been happening all throughout recorded human history, so we cannot completely attribute suicidal tendencies to societal context.

a reply to: Wang Tang

I agree with a lot of that, and there have been some good posts here, specifically from Spirit Horse, but I would say that to some extent, we have a duty to those that care about us to live. Again, that is dependent upon circumstances, and it gets selfish of friends and relatives to demand that someone live in whatever form of incessant pain that they have, but we're not islands.

To put it in the terms of your original post, if suicide is free will, and everyone else is reactive, it's wrong to use your free will to put someone into something that will cause them pain, and they will be in pain because they won't understand because they are reactive. Because let's face it, pain in one form or another is what caused you to check out, so by your suicide you add to the capacity to cause suicide in others then it doesn't look like free will so much.

I think I will choose Yeshua this time:

Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

Sometimes the reason for wanting to leave this place, is the need to be in a place where souls are more logical and aware, since humanity as a whole do not measure up and have not evolved enough.

When a soul pushes suffering and need out it creates a telepathic distress call. I get that a large majority of humans do not have a body calibrated to hear this calls including me. But there are souls that have calibrated their bodies and mind and have this ability that can both be a curse and a blessing.

If humanity evolved to a higher level of awareness there would be more people handling distress calls on this level, so every suicide is humanity collectively failing to evolve humanity to a social and technological level that makes the soul want to stick around on this level and not suffer.

Suicidal thoughts originate from pain.

Life is suffering at times and some toughen through it until one day they give up the pain for either a better life after death or no life at all.

It may be a normal thought as most of us do experience pain over and over again.

Logic belongs to the beholder.

Maybe... just maybe the person who killed their self did so according to their blue print/plan. Life is all about learning within a "soul group".

My thoughts are once you take your own life you come right back and begin again and again until you hold on for the storm to pass.

It is known deep down that life would be much lighter/ easier if there was an absence of the separate self. It is the separate (false) self that must die.

originally posted by: violet
I sincerely doubt a person that close to taking their life is thinking about what comes after it. It's an " ending" about ending pain, ending the suffering. Everything else they tried to do about it failed to take away the feelings of wanting it all to end. It's a last straw. It's not about beginning a new journey. There's no desire to begin anything.

I guarantee many a Catholic has wanted to do the deed, but in Catholicism, the punishment for suicide is hell.

You don't think that would change people's minds, or would weigh very heavily indeed on them? I can't think of any pain beyond constant, agonizing torture that would make me want to risk hell.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
It is known deep down that life would be much lighter/ easier if there was an absence of the separate self. It is the separate (false) self that must die.

But it is the separation and the individuality the soul eventually craves. We come to this material world to experience things impossible to experience in the spirit world with free will.

a reply to: spirit_horse

Thank you for sharing your experiences, it has been enlightening for me.

You say a lot of your worries went away and you felt free after you died and were revived. Do you think you could have achieved this state without being so close to death?

originally posted by: schuyler

originally posted by: Wang Tang

...for you did not choose to be born,

That's your mistake right there. What if you DID choose to be born? What if you thought about it a whole lot, yearned for it constantly, chose your own parents and your own circumstances promising that THIS time you would learn all you could from a life? Then you decide you can't hack it and quit, thus nullifying your own reason for existence.

If that's the case, it's not such a hot decision. Just because you don;t remember it doesn't mean it didn't happen, and if it did, all you will say is,

"Oops!"

Why is it a mistake?

If someone chose to be born, they can also have the same choice to be unborn. Death.

Simple as that.

originally posted by: MaxTamesSiva
a reply to: Wang Tang
*snip*
Then few years ago, I have a co-worker who committed suicide. He drank poison, he was just a kid in his early twenties. His girlfriend was pregnant at the time and he was treated badly by the girl's family. His mother just died a few weeks before he took his own life. He was a good kid, hard working, could've been a good father I guess.

So what's my point? I don't know. Do I have regrets? Too many to mention but life is still interesting even when it sucks big time... Makes me want to reread Camus' The Rebel.

It seems to me--from the reading I've done--so many people commit suicide after a family member dies or they themselves commit suicide. The emotional burden overwhelms them? I think it's possible they lacked a social support somewhere and so nobody was there to give a shoulder to lean on. Or maybe they're the kind of person who can't lean on someone else's shoulder somehow?

And this is why committing suicide should never be done lightly. The strain you're trying to escape from? A similar strain is placed on those who loved you after you take your own life. Why would you do that? Even if the pain you feel makes you want to leave, you have to think about them. So my thinking is some people who kill themselves either lack the empathy to understand the resulting pain others can feel or they don't have the close relationships which produce this or the pain is so overpowering all of their instincts pertaining to others are muted. Either which way you look at it, it's tragic it occurs at all.

Everybody has considered suicide at least once in their life. But not everybody has done it consistently. That's suicide ideation. Suicide ideation is linked to actually doing it. Just putting that out there.

I think we should think about the times we've enjoyed in life. Like me for example. Most of my life has been ok. If I had to rate it between 1 and 10, I'd give it a 5 or even a 6. I have complaints like anybody else. I've had some very bad moments too. And yet overall I have to say it's like when you worry about failing an exam and then you get an A. Or if you're nervous about an interview or event coming up and then it turns out to be ok or even enjoyable. When we're in a dark place, all of the negatives look much bigger than they actually are. It's like watching a uncannily scary movie with the lights off. I'm not saying the negatives don't exist, only that they sometimes get more focus than they deserve. Meanwhile, the positives are awaiting with warm welcome.

If all you do is sit, everything else looks taller and more foreboding. While it's not always reliable, getting up can fix a lot of anxiety.

a reply to: jonnywhite
The idea of suicide as an option is liberating, death as the great mystery is also fascinating. Maybe the trick is to find the balance? Who doesn't want to die in bed with a pair of hot twins or doing something they love in the case of extreme sports aficionados? Why only associate suicide with pain, suffering, hopelessness and selfishness, why not joy, love, hope and selflessness?

a reply to: Wang Tang

Suicide doesn't work, you just get put under the microscope of the system the assembly line back to "normality" that is typically a cocktail of various things so one doesn't want to harm oneself or others in a chemical straight jacket.

Here's the irony of Western society and thought... if you were to kill those that brought you the most suffering, then the time spent in prison or an institution is less time than going through the health system and leaving them alive to abuse other people and continue spreading pain.

A rapist gets maybe 4 to 5 years or a slap on the wrist as the one that was raped is sentenced to a life time, whereas if they were to kill the rapist then sentenced much worse... than the rapist gets. So where's the justice?

Well, you can strive through it in humility, shame and all that other business be the stronger person and see that they were the one weak of will coming out stronger than anyone could ever imagine... of course, the stupid system has the idea that it was the abuse that led to such an evolution of being when nurture could do the exact same thing without forcing roles and lessons onto people.

That's the true madness... what doesn't kill us makes us stronger, well that stuff already kills people as they walk around dead inside as they aren't the ones that need redemption and they don't need to give redemption to those that trespassed them as that is condoning what is already wrong with the system in the first place.

Death is the redeemer and it follows those that have no regard for any life other than their own.

Do not stay silent do not swallow the secrets that such abusers want you to stay silent or swallow as it only allows them to still have control remove their ability to hide cast a light on every nook and cranny they try to find solace in... the same way the abuse doesn't allow you any peace of mind? Don't allow any for them. That's the true eye for an eye tooth for tooth... it doesn't allow a blind eye, it doesn't a stolen voice from a broken jaw it doesn't turn the other cheek and run away or to be branded as their slave. It shows where they are hiding, it speaks truth and it brands them for exactly what they are so all know it so that they are the ones that live in shame instead.

Sure some want to say well someone did that to me so I couldn't help myself... sure you can it's weak willed and a virus to keep spreading what you know is wrong and hurtful breaking that cycle is breaking those chains... everything else is just trying to cope with it not solve it. If they wanted to solve it then they would have but didn't since they didn't then that's where the real apathy lay and why the same nonsense continues on and on generation after generation with excuse after excuse.

Well there is no excuse for it.

originally posted by: Wang Tang
a reply to: spirit_horse

Thank you for sharing your experiences, it has been enlightening for me.

You say a lot of your worries went away and you felt free after you died and were revived. Do you think you could have achieved this state without being so close to death?

I believe so. I think there are spiritual paths that one can take that will lead you to realize this life is but one part in the overall life you spiritually live. They work on their spirituality and don't let the overarching society define their lives. I think there are a few ways to reach a point spiritually where the things that people invest a lot of their time worrying about will just fall away and become unimportant to the big picture.

I know personally that the majority of things I hear people complain about and let it affect their lives seem inconsequential to me. I try to stay out of religious arguments because man has basically managed to create a multitude of religions and even sects within those religions. I think they may all be trying to describe a reality that you don't cease to exist when your body dies. Your energy or spirit that is your consciousness goes on. There are plenty of belief systems that believe that you have an afterlife, however they try to describe it.

I had followed the belief system I was raised in and believed certain things I really had no proof of which we would call faith. I was still all caught up in this life and like so many had worries and concerns about things that I allowed to take up a lot of time and interfere with spiritual development. The problem I had I really didn't even understand I had until experiencing what I did. It was kind of like you believe something but never had any experience to show that belief was real. I will use a lame analogy here. If you believed that a large creature like Bigfoot existed out in the deep forests but never had any actual proof that it did. And one day out walking on a nature trail and came around the corner and there standing right in front of you was an 8' extremely large creature there any doubt would instantly flee like darkness when a light is turned on. If there was any doubt about your existence after death, dying will do the same for you.

I had a professor once say that if something isn't going to affect the rest of your life then don't worry about it. That really is a good statement to describe how I feel. And I know that whenever death of the body happens I will just be starting a much greater existence. I had my oldest daughter die when she was 15 back in 2005. As much as it hurt your heart, I know she has begun a much better existence not limited by the physical body. My experience with grieving her loss was starkly different to other family members. Your OP dealt with contemplating suicide and that is why I shared my thoughts on that. Perhaps it is different to me because of my experiences in how I think about death. That would be different for someone that really doesn't know what happens after they commit suicide. I wouldn't recommend anyone attempt to commit suicide though. I believe the majority that attempt it, successful or not, are going through some personal crises that would pass and for that reason should get help.

In Oregon doctor assisted suicide in legal. You have to be a resident for 6 months prior to seeking professional help. Now that is for people suffering from severe disease or injury. A woman that had brain cancer and suffered greatly because of it did so and I believe she should have that right. Often when I find myself in distress I quickly remind myself of the many that suffer much greater than me. For some reason I am meant to be here.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness
That's precisely the point Camus made in his book The Rebel, after tackling the idea of suicide in his previous book The Myth of Sisyphus. The Myth of Sisyphus as the Old Testament and the Rebel as the New Testament.

"Man is the only creature who refuses to be what he is."
The Rebel (Introduction)

And as Dostoevsky pointed out in Memoirs From the House of the Dead:
"Man is a creature who can get used to anything, and I believe that is the very best way of defining him."