Revisiting Jaques Vallée - Beyond the Control Loop

a reply to: billydebunker

It's okay, in a parallel universe I am an alien.

originally posted by: billydebunker

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: billydebunker

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: billydebunker

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: billydebunker

A flying saucer stopped all air traffic in the middle of the day at the nations busiest airport, O'Hare, in 2007. Not expectations, simply tangible reality. It is impossible to pretend otherwise.

Someone reporting they saw something that wasn't there would have the same effect. Try screaming "FIRE!" in a movie theater.

Let me get this straight with you too.

Are you saying that a flying saucer did NOT hover over O'Hare airport?

My point was that lots of things can cause air traffic to "stop". So of course, something unidentified in flight paths would cause air traffic to be diverted or whatever. It's not proof something was actually there.

Was that yes or no quesion too difficult for you?

Let me put it this way. Perhaps maybe but not necessarily. My answer is as vague as any ufo. You make what you want from it. But yes. what does it matter anyway? and no.

Empty and meaningless post. Can't waste my time.

but you did

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: billydebunker

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: billydebunker

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: billydebunker

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: billydebunker

A flying saucer stopped all air traffic in the middle of the day at the nations busiest airport, O'Hare, in 2007. Not expectations, simply tangible reality. It is impossible to pretend otherwise.

Someone reporting they saw something that wasn't there would have the same effect. Try screaming "FIRE!" in a movie theater.

Let me get this straight with you too.

Are you saying that a flying saucer did NOT hover over O'Hare airport?

My point was that lots of things can cause air traffic to "stop". So of course, something unidentified in flight paths would cause air traffic to be diverted or whatever. It's not proof something was actually there.

Was that yes or no quesion too difficult for you?

Let me put it this way. Perhaps maybe but not necessarily. My answer is as vague as any ufo. You make what you want from it. But yes. what does it matter anyway? and no.

Empty and meaningless post. Can't waste my time.

but you did

Oh well.

originally posted by: billydebunker

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: billydebunker

Tsk, Tsk, mirageman, mirageman. Please don't play dumb, you know as well as I do that the entire stretch of road where this happened, and the earth beneath it, and the shoulders of the road, was completely dug up and replaced by the Army Corps of Engineers within a day of the incident. So really, man, you're a better debunker than that.

Where did you get the information that the Army could get a whole load of asphalt and a team of engineers out just before New Year's Eve and resurface the road? The road section was entirely repaved in 1982 when major expansion work was undertaken in the area.

Am I trying to debunk the case? Absolutely not. There is still something being covered up now and it's not the road surface. What was the craft? What caused symptoms of radiation poisoning to the witnesses? There are still unanswered questions in this case over 3 decades later.

Please. Maybe the british army can't get their sh*t together like that, but ours can and did.
And don't pretend you haven't read that is what happened in the Cash-Landrum case.

So you actually agree with Vallee then? Even though you've been bad mouthing his ideas throughout the thread.

Here's what Monsieur Vallee had to say about the Cash Landrum case in his book : Forbidden Science page 197-198.



You're getting a bit muddled in your old age my old chum.

Anyway I don't agree with that because although the road was resurfaced it was certainly not the next day. Firstly the witnesses did not report anything initially so how would anyone know to resurface the road?

Secondly investigator John Schuessler who did not pick up the details and investigate the site until well into 1981 claims

"I have photographs of a 15- to 25-foot area where even the center stripe was wiggly," he said.


Houston Chronicle September 15, 1991

So although I think we both probably agree this is a good trace evidence case (as did Mr. Vallee) I think you need to check facts with more than one source. That Vallee bloke, in this case, is just a "charlatan" who had to ignore data to reach his unsupported claim.

originally posted by: mirageman

originally posted by: billydebunker

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: billydebunker

Tsk, Tsk, mirageman, mirageman. Please don't play dumb, you know as well as I do that the entire stretch of road where this happened, and the earth beneath it, and the shoulders of the road, was completely dug up and replaced by the Army Corps of Engineers within a day of the incident. So really, man, you're a better debunker than that.

Where did you get the information that the Army could get a whole load of asphalt and a team of engineers out just before New Year's Eve and resurface the road? The road section was entirely repaved in 1982 when major expansion work was undertaken in the area.

Am I trying to debunk the case? Absolutely not. There is still something being covered up now and it's not the road surface. What was the craft? What caused symptoms of radiation poisoning to the witnesses? There are still unanswered questions in this case over 3 decades later.

Please. Maybe the british army can't get their sh*t together like that, but ours can and did.
And don't pretend you haven't read that is what happened in the Cash-Landrum case.

So you actually agree with Vallee then? Even though you've been bad mouthing his ideas throughout the thread.

Here's what Monsieur Vallee had to say about the Cash Landrum case in his book : Forbidden Science page 197-198.

You're getting a bit muddled in your old age my old chum.

Anyway I don't agree with that because although the road was resurfaced it was certainly not the next day. Firstly the witnesses did not report anything initially so how would anyone know to resurface the road?

Secondly investigator John Schuessler who did not pick up the details and investigate the site until well into 1981 claims

"I have photographs of a 15- to 25-foot area where even the center stripe was wiggly," he said.


Houston Chronicle September 15, 1991

So although I think we both probably agree this is a good trace evidence case (as did Mr. Vallee) I think you need to check facts with more than one source. That Vallee bloke, in this case, is just a "charlatan" who had to ignore data to reach his unsupported claim.

See what happens when you play dumb?

And don't pretend Vallee was the only source for that, he was not. Pip pip, eh wot?

originally posted by: Dan00
a reply to: Willtell

One thing is for sure, if a guy like Vallee couldn’t find the truth likely nobody will.

That is a universal accepted truth which may be asking too much.

You are fired. Jack's spin on UFOs, or his lack of ability to spin UFOs, is not a "universal truth". You're fired Will.

a reply to: Blue Shift

we just don't have the right kind of perceptual or intellectual abilities to make reasonable (to us) sense out of it.

I know, right, because how could the same apparatus that doesn't understand be the same apparatus that is "experiencing" UFOs?

You are also fired.

Sheesh.

No you misinterpreted the line. I said or meant that the finding of a universal accepted truth is a colossal challenge. I didn't mean to say that Vallee found such a thing…no one has.

originally posted by: Dan00
You are also fired.

Where can I pick up my severance check?

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: Dan00
You are also fired.

Where can I pick up my severance check?

I'd imagine SCICOP just mails them out to you.

originally posted by: billydebunker
I'd imagine SCICOP just mails them out to you.

I thought you were with them!

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: billydebunker
I'd imagine SCICOP just mails them out to you.

I thought you were with them!

Shhhh....I am.

I'm only pretending to be deeply offended every time Jim Oldberg tries to smear the reputation of heroic U.S. Astronauts. I'm secretly totally cool with it.

a reply to: billydebunker




I don't know. When do you think this photo was taken? December 30th 1980?

Did John Schuessler fake it? If so what for. What's going on? Maybe Vallee was right. I told you this case was a fascinating one. As they say in Madagascar, 'Tout cela est un droit de jeu?'

a reply to: Peeple

I agree with thr possibility that a portion of UFO'S are from the future in a sense but not as simple as that explanation. Since proposing some of these things are as old as time itself or civilization. Thing is it probably gets very technical for them...like being their basis for existing or just basic codes.

I also don't doubt that there are ufo's that are E.T in origin and can perform similar feats but difference might vary in different extremes. Also most myths have climatic battles of two separate factions, species, or authorities.

Asuras and the Devas, Titans vs Olympus, Demon/Jinn and The Angels...Fairies/Elves vs Goblins/ Trolls... Choas an Order ...Primordials vs...error. ...ahhhh....modern or present.

But good luck with trying to make a puzzle out of that tangled mess of literature with some accuracy.

I had been guessing that some of the multi dimensional ufo are in our view from a different time, and originated from within the Earth or possibly the sun. Something like a common belief of an underworld or land of the dead or has yet to be. However they can view time simultaneously.

Most God's of the underworld are said to be on par or even have a greater power then God's who are heavenly powerhouses.

a reply to: Specimen

I'm just watching a reptile giving a birth preparation course lesson. Now he is back in a Vietnamese living room in Germany. A famous german "natural chiropractor" mostly for horses, but he does dogs, humans, chicken too just came in. Tamme Hanken?
I am so confused. They're totally relaxed. And we are the same species. All bets are welcome what misunderstandings are possible, if we weren't.
It's a guy with a doll looking like a reptile smoking and wearing a trenchcoat. A bit like Anonymous Rex. T.C. Boyle. The idea is not new, but I don't get it. "Welltall. Echse. Mensch." He doesn't mention or interact with the human carrying him. He and a female reptile just talked how they're the two last beings of their race, but "it just didn't work" and they almost had sex in public when they met, but again... it didn't work.
Haha. Does that answer your question?
Yes it might be the discovery of more than one really strange being, existences on a realm we never considered possible. And then some. Ghost dogs. What if our "souls" are state swingers? Frozen, vaporised. Existing on this other realm. We discover what would be proof for the existence of god, but at the same time the biological explanation for it. Things could be even weirder. And
truth is stranger than fiction.

originally posted by: billydebunker
This is pure nonsense too, I'm afraid. Your psychologist friend should stick to telling teenage girls not to cut themselves.
If this were "psychological", then flying saucers would not show up in photographs. Use that brain.

Are you always so pleasant? Ah, I see from your other responses you are quite the delight.

Holographic projections are not real physical objects yet they show up in photos. If tulpas are possible then I imagine they could work in a similar fashion. Not to mention that every UFO photo is either a hoax or an indistinguishable blur. They could be anything, and a photograph does not indicate where the subject originated from.

a reply to: billydebunker

I'm only pretending to be deeply offended every time Jim Oldberg tries to smear the reputation of heroic U.S. Astronauts. I'm secretly totally cool with it.

the offense does come off as a bit insincere.

a reply to: SargonThrall

The preponderance of the evidence seems to indicate that UAP's are more insubstantial than substantial.. that even in cases of trace evidence (or apparent trace evidence) that the causative effect was primarily or entirely based on a high energy density effect and not necessarily *anything* nuts and bolts or physical.. at least permanently physical.

I believe that most of the folks who have done their homework (like you have) are fully aware of this.

So you got a star from me!

We are all aware that (I can pretty much say this word) "fact" really annoys the people who believe that they have been abducted or who have watched way too much Star Trek.

I guess they will just have to be annoyed.

Now--- on that subject.. I 100% believe that there could be "psychic abductions" --- whole lifetimes can be lived
if your mind is being controlled.. which high energy effects like UAP's are quite possibly able to accomplish..

And of course it seems that UAPs might be able to be fully physically materialized for short periods of time.. so really anything is possible.

But this alternative theory.. that there aren't any nuts and bolts in APPARENT nuts and bolts craft doesn't sit
well with everyone.. so it gets tap danced around, and some particularly unstable personalities go into
attack mode and make jerks out of themselves to dismiss the notion--and never have any evidence to make
a clear case.

Thanks!




Kev

a reply to: SargonThrall

Duplicate. Sorry.

a reply to: SargonThrall

Duplicate. Sorry.

originally posted by: billydebunker
If flying saucers were not physical craft, they couldn't show up in photographs.

As someone else mentioned, holograms aren't physical and yet they'd show up just fine in a photo. You need to open your mind a little, you know? You're very closed minded and unnecessarily aggressive.
There could be non physical entities, from another dimension, or a parallel universe, or even this universe except made from dark matter. They may have the ability to appear solid, or even be able to manipulate reality and actually become solid.