Did Paul Invent Christianity?

the differences between Malocchino and I.

Malocchino believes the scriptures are corrupt, not inspired, not true, and inaccurate unless it is something he chooses to support his claims then those choice scriptures are true(this goes for Matrixsurvivor as well). By this they make themselves god in place of God to say what is true and what is not.

I believe that ALL of God's words are true, pure, accurate and inspired. Even that which is hard to understand or goes against what the norms of today.

Malocchino does not believe God kept his promise to preserve his words to every generation for ever as he promised to do.

Ps 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

And one must go to unverifiable copies in dead languages and try and figure out what those other languages mean even though no one speaks those languages and has not for at least a millennia or more. Nor does he believe one should folow the instruction to rightly divide the word of Truth.

I believe All God's words are preserved as promised and I can hold them in one hand in one Holy Bible, the only printed Bible that has all the verses, words, and phrases God wants us to have in the language of this Generation. I believe if you study the words, phrases, verses, chapters, and books of the Whole Holy Bible in English and strive to show that you are approved unto God and rightly Divide the word of Truth, God will reveal truth and mysteries to you.

Malocchino believes ALL of Paul's writings are false teachings and thereby do not belong int he Bible and no one should follow them. This would also include everything after Chapter 8 of the book of the acts of the apostles and the Gospel according to Luke. this is because Luke in the eyes of Malocchino was a collaborator with Saul/Paul to mislead the whole world in the true Gospel.

I believe ALL of Paul's writings to be inspired of God, that he was a true man of God, who explained the way of truth according to the Gospel given him to testify of for this age.

Malocchino believes that all mentions of the word Gospel int he Bible is one and the same Gospel, namely the Gospel of the Kingdom. The gospel of the kingdom required one repent of all sin, be baptized in water, follow all the commandments of the Bible, the commandments of Jesus, endure unto the end, and overcome. He believes the gospel of the grace of God through faith alone is made up by Paul and should be rejected. And the Everlasting Gospel preached by and angel is the same as the kingdom Gospel, even though its only requirements were to fear god and give him glory for his judgement is come.

I believe these are three distinct Gospels, all of which differ from one another for distinct periods of time and function. I believe the gospel of the grace of God given Paul to testify unto the Gentiles as well as Jews today is the only way to be saved until the gathering of the body of Christ to Jesus in the clouds of heaven evermore to be with him.

Malocchino (and others) believe that the Holy Bible has been wrong all these millennia, and they are the ones who have found the truth and are correct and God's preserved words are wrong.

so in the end you must follow what has for years been proven by great works of salvation through the Bible unto the world or follow Malocchino and others in a Gospel that has been set aside along with Israels Kingdom promise and follow them, endure and overcome on your own.

I choose to believe the Holy Preserved word of God over these men teaching nothing more than the doctrines of the devil and man.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
the differences between Malocchino and I.

Malocchino believes the scriptures are corrupt, not inspired, not true, and inaccurate unless it is something he chooses to support his claims then those choice scriptures are true(this goes for Matrixsurvivor as well). By this they make themselves god in place of God to say what is true and what is not.

I believe that ALL of God's words are true, pure, accurate and inspired. Even that which is hard to understand or goes against what the norms of today.

Malocchino does not believe God kept his promise to preserve his words to every generation for ever as he promised to do.

Ps 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

And one must go to unverifiable copies in dead languages and try and figure out what those other languages mean even though no one speaks those languages and has not for at least a millennia or more. Nor does he believe one should folow the instruction to rightly divide the word of Truth.

I believe All God's words are preserved as promised and I can hold them in one hand in one Holy Bible, the only printed Bible that has all the verses, words, and phrases God wants us to have in the language of this Generation. I believe if you study the words, phrases, verses, chapters, and books of the Whole Holy Bible in English and strive to show that you are approved unto God and rightly Divide the word of Truth, God will reveal truth and mysteries to you.

Malocchino believes ALL of Paul's writings are false teachings and thereby do not belong int he Bible and no one should follow them. This would also include everything after Chapter 8 of the book of the acts of the apostles and the Gospel according to Luke. this is because Luke in the eyes of Malocchino was a collaborator with Saul/Paul to mislead the whole world in the true Gospel.

I believe ALL of Paul's writings to be inspired of God, that he was a true man of God, who explained the way of truth according to the Gospel given him to testify of for this age.

Malocchino believes that all mentions of the word Gospel int he Bible is one and the same Gospel, namely the Gospel of the Kingdom. The gospel of the kingdom required one repent of all sin, be baptized in water, follow all the commandments of the Bible, the commandments of Jesus, endure unto the end, and overcome. He believes the gospel of the grace of God through faith alone is made up by Paul and should be rejected. And the Everlasting Gospel preached by and angel is the same as the kingdom Gospel, even though its only requirements were to fear god and give him glory for his judgement is come.

I believe these are three distinct Gospels, all of which differ from one another for distinct periods of time and function. I believe the gospel of the grace of God given Paul to testify unto the Gentiles as well as Jews today is the only way to be saved until the gathering of the body of Christ to Jesus in the clouds of heaven evermore to be with him.

Malocchino (and others) believe that the Holy Bible has been wrong all these millennia, and they are the ones who have found the truth and are correct and God's preserved words are wrong.

so in the end you must follow what has for years been proven by great works of salvation through the Bible unto the world or follow Malocchino and others in a Gospel that has been set aside along with Israels Kingdom promise and follow them, endure and overcome on your own.

I choose to believe the Holy Preserved word of God over these men teaching nothing more than the doctrines of the devil and man.

Which is pretty sad (for you), because there are MANY people throughout the centuries, and I mean many....who have seen Paul as the liar he is.
Many of these people are "born again" Christians, and know the Bible very well. Yet, for some reason, these people (according to you) are all deceived, as well.
That's interesting. Usually where there's smoke there's a fire. If people who actually love and worship the Most High God, and follow Jesus, but see Paul as a liar, then there is a reason for it.
You have made the Bible your God. Period. That's why you can't "rightly divide the WORD of TRUTH (that JESUS spoke) from Paul's gibberish. You have been indoctrinated by men's interpretation yourself.
The Holy Spirit was a promised gift to those who chose to believe in and accept Jesus. That Spirit is the Spirit of TRUTH.
Jesus Himself said that when He went back to His Father, that His Father would send the HS to REMIND those who were HIS of EXACTLY what Jesus taught....not anyone else. Just JESUS.
So, how do you get around the fact that Paul NEVER taught what Jesus taught? NEVER.
Paul came up with his "own gospel", which wasn't "good news" but news of condemnation and bigotry. Bigotry against women, upholding slavery, and he twisted the Tanahk many times over to support his own made up doctrine.
So, if GOD (the TRUE MOST HIGH FATHER) of Jesus HAD to send the Holy Spirit of TRUTH....so that those who follow Jesus would KNOW exactly what that truth is, don't ya think there was a good reason for that?
I mean, look how much deception is in Christendom. It's rampant in the churches and in believers. They don't even follow Jesus. Oh, they think they are, but the one the are really following is Saul of Tarsus, because that's all the dang preachers/pastors preach on.
Tell ya what, pay attention in church or your homegroup next time you are there, and do a ratio of how much of Paul's teachings are taught, compared to Jesus'. I guarantee you it will be eye opening.
So, if you actually pay attention, you will see that PAUL'S scraptures have trumped Jesus'.....over and over again.
And you wonder where the "filthy lucre" idea comes from?? Jesus didn't teach anything Paul did on being "paid" for teaching the gospel. Not once.
You Chester, have totally failed to live up to your devotion to your "Savior". Your savior, apparently, is in reality Paul.
Don't think so? Then go back through the 63 pages of this thread and see who you quote the most.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I choose to believe the Holy Preserved word of God over these men teaching nothing more than the doctrines of the devil and man.

One...it's not "HOLY", two, it's not "PRESEVED", three....it's definitely a combination of "doctrines of devils and man"....AND the real God and His Son.
But, you go ahead and bow down to it, hook, line, and sinker.
OR...you can actually ASK the MOST HIGH GOD, WHO He truly is. You just might be surprised.

Malocchino (and others) believe that the Holy Bible has been wrong all these millennia, and they are the ones who have found the truth and are correct and God's preserved words are wrong.

a reply to: ChesterJohn


OR...maybe (we) and "he" just decided to listen to Jesus alone. Quite a concept, huh?

I believe ALL of Paul's writings to be inspired of God, that he was a true man of God, who explained the way of truth according to the Gospel given him to testify of for this age.

So, you are quite SURE that the "gospel" given to Paul was the one for this age? Funny that. Cause all I see given Paul's"gospel", is division.

Don't think so ? Then why does every street corner have a different denomination? Why can't Christians even agree amongst themselves?
You have the Baptist going toe to toe with the Lutheran's, and the Lutheran's going toe to toe with the Church of Christ, and none of them actually pull together to truly follow the teachings of Jesus. Nor do you.

so in the end you must follow what has for years been proven by great works of salvation through the Bible unto the world or follow Malocchino and others in a Gospel that has been set aside along with Israels Kingdom promise and follow them, endure and overcome on your own.

Huh... so you believe that everyone who's not "Jewish" is supposed to follow "Paul's gospel"?? Ok, then why did Jesus say HIS GOSPEL was to be preached to ALL THE WORLD?
Please, Chester....for once in this whole thread, give an answer to that question.

I believe these are three distinct Gospels, all of which differ from one another for distinct periods of time and function. I believe the gospel of the grace of God given Paul to testify unto the Gentiles as well as Jews today is the only way to be saved until the gathering of the body of Christ to Jesus in the clouds of heaven evermore to be with him.

Did you miss the part where Jesus told Peter that HE was the one chosen to take the message to the gentiles?

Malocchino (and others) believe that the Holy Bible has been wrong all these millennia, and they are the ones who have found the truth and are correct and God's preserved words are wrong.

Really? Your hang up is you believe that BOOK to be totally inerrant. We don't. Yet, we...and many others out there still believe that what Jesus taught was truth and good.
Do you love your enemies, Chester? Or not?

I choose to believe the Holy Preserved word of God over these men teaching nothing more than the doctrines of the devil and man.

That's just down right funny...cause the actual "inspired Words of God" would have been the one's coming right of Jesus' mouth. Even Jesus said that His words were not His own.
Heck, even Jesus Himself said "you think by studying scripture that you have found eternal life....yet you don't come to ME to have eternal life".
Interesting, don't ya think?

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Paul, it's not really a name I would put up there, Jehova, Joshua, Jacob, Jesus and Paul....

He might have invented it though, because it is an invention and not anything more IMO. Would you say a worm is an invention?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I think your Gospel of the Kingdom of God/Heaven vs. gospel of grace theory is correct.

It's just that I believe in Jesus ''Kingdom of God/Heaven" and reject the FALSE gospel of grace, because that's what Jesus said to do to false prophets.

"Do not believe them!" Mt. 24

You are one who fell for the first false prophet to emerge on the scene and teach false teachings using the name of Christ and James and the Apostles, who admits it his gospel and not that of the 12 Apostles, as do you.

But it's still false teachings, false teachings you fell for against the advice of the Messiah.

You fell for the wolf.

Because some ignorant men included them in a book called ''The Bible" or "New Testament(Covenant really)."

But the gospel of grace is the doctrine of one man who never met the Messiah and simply claimed to receive secret messages from him.

The ''law of 2 or 3 witnesses" decrees his claims unverifiable and not the word of God or Jesus, as he has ZERO witnesses.

So he obviously is the predicted false prophet of Matthew 24, and his being included in the book was the decision of anti Semitic, ignorant and uneducated Romans.

Paul never met Jesus, didn't receive private revelations because Jesus said anyone who claims that is lying.

Paul is an egomaniac and pathological liar desirous of glory.

to matrixsurvivor and Malocchin

then throw away the Bible altogether and just start your own religion. Or as malocchino has done be a muslim, an hindu, a Buddhist or any number of other religons and forget the bible.

for you do not believe it is what God says it is nor that god has his hand on it to protect it and preserve it.

I will not bow to you even though you make yourself god in God our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ's stead.

Wow this is a popular thread, such an intense subject.

Even though scholars say only 7 epistles are genuine, if Paul did write all of them or just the so called genuine epistles:


He was one of the most flamboyantly ignorant people in the history of mankind as well as the biggest liar and hypocrite.

originally posted by: SethTsaddik


Wow this is a popular thread, such an intense subject.

Even though scholars say only 7 epistles are genuine, if Paul did write all of them or just the so called genuine epistles:


He was one of the most flamboyantly ignorant people in the history of mankind as well as the biggest liar and hypocrite.

Right on!
And Christians are completely blind in seeing it, because his epistles are " in the Book".
They can't think objectively due to that.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: SethTsaddik


Wow this is a popular thread, such an intense subject.

Even though scholars say only 7 epistles are genuine, if Paul did write all of them or just the so called genuine epistles:


He was one of the most flamboyantly ignorant people in the history of mankind as well as the biggest liar and hypocrite.

Right on!

And Christians are completely blind in seeing it, because his epistles are " in the Book".
They can't think objectively due to that.

It's so obvious Paul was not a real apostle because no apostle refers to him as that and he is constantly declaring that he is not lying even swearing to God, a sign of the evil one according to Jesus.

And the fruits of his letter writing campaign and lies of prophetic visions are the Catholic Church, the most evil organization in world history.

Jesus religion was Judaism and the Catholic Church that canonized the epistles of Paul did so because he was hostile towards Judaism. They tried to merge two opposing religions.

Christianity is a house divided with a self indicting book, which is why it has not stood and we have 30,000 Christianities, all the ''true church" and they dislike each other intensely, Protestants hate Catholics who hate everyone and everyone hates them, calling the very Church that gave them the Bible the Antichrist. JW's, Mormons, Adventists, all false churches if you ask a non member.

Such unity!

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Prove that the Bible is, with its many translations, is the word of God.

You can't. What you believe has no foundation in truth or logic and I guarantee you don't understand one word of it.

If you did you would know it's a pretty vile book when taken literally, something the authors probably never intended except for the uneducated.

Only the elite were in on the real meaning, and Christianity knows nothing about it.

And what divine book would include a blasphemous hypocrite with the words of a real prophet?

Paul didn't know or care what Jesus taught, and James didn't trust him at all. He must have gotten angry and made up his little story about visions and visiting the third heaven.

Ok Paul.

originally posted by: SethTsaddik
a reply to: ChesterJohn

Prove that the Bible is, with its many translations, is the word of God.

You can't. What you believe has no foundation in truth or logic and I guarantee you don't understand one word of it.

If you did you would know it's a pretty vile book when taken literally, something the authors probably never intended except for the uneducated.

Only the elite were in on the real meaning, and Christianity knows nothing about it.

And what divine book would include a blasphemous hypocrite with the words of a real prophet?

Paul didn't know or care what Jesus taught, and James didn't trust him at all. He must have gotten angry and made up his little story about visions and visiting the third heaven.

Ok Paul.

Awesome post.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

then throw away the Bible altogether and just start your own religion. Or as malocchino has done be a muslim, an hindu, a Buddhist or any number of other religons and forget the bible.

OR....listen to Jesus INSTEAD of Paul. It's not rocket science.

for you do not believe it is what God says it is nor that god has his hand on it to protect it and preserve it.

Yea. What else has He protected and preserved? Just His "Word"? Is that the only thing that matters to Him?
Do you really think that men could not tamper with that "Word" you think is so inerrant?

I will not bow to you even though you make yourself god in God our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ's stead.

No one is making themselves "God", Chester. We just don't believe Paul is legit. It doesn't mean we've tossed the whole teachings of Jesus out. Quite the contrary....those who disregard Paul, can hear Jesus more clearly. Can you?

I find it interesting that Paul admits that he had been rejected or turned away from by "all of Asia."

The reason it's interesting is it's in Revelation we find the same thing mentioned in, out of the 7 letters to the churches of Asia (the very place of Paul's rejection) the letter to Ephesus congratulates the Ephesians:

Revelation 2:2

I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou can't bear them which are evil:and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars."

Now one might say no names were mentioned so we can't say Jesus means Paul but it would be logical to assume that Jesus would have said something about another apostle besides the 12 true apostles had one existed, seeing as how there were false apostles. He must be talking about Paul and others like or with Paul.

The proof comes not by name but by wisdom, as the author suggests be used at one point it's actually necessary to use it throughout as all the imagery is metaphorical.

It's the city of New Jerusalem that Revelation speaks of that confirms that any apostle outside of the 12 apostles, Matthias being # 12 as the final apostle chosen, being one of two men who qualify in the world and was chosen by lot, with the assistance of God. That was how it goes down in acts.

So Paul can't be, according to scripture itself, an apostle for many reasons. But the best reason is that 12 is a fixed number and another being he never knew Jesus.

If Jesus spoke in visions to Paul, changing his entire plan in the Gospels of NOT abolishing the Law or changing one iota to the Law, is a curse, abolished and replaced by the weird words of Paul, I think it would have been confirmed by the book of Revelation or to the apostles in visions who would have said fine, because it's Jesus.

The fact that he didn't and wasn't recognized as an apostle, wasn't mentioned except in the pseudepigraphal 2 Peter that only calls him a ''brother" who was ''hard to understand" aka don't make sense, was the subject of the Epistle of James as in "Faith without works is dead" is all the evidence one needs to determine Paul was not an apostle including what I mentioned in Revelation.

That makes him a liar, a false prophet and the reason Christianity is a misleading religion.

Pastors who can't see this or choose to ignore it should be ashamed of themselves for being so uneducated or dishonest when it comes to the teachings of Christ vs. Paul.

Some say Jesus teachings sometimes only apply to Jews but they don't say that Paul only applies to non Jews so they elevate Paul above Jesus by making his Epistles apply to Messianic Judaism.

Which is baffling, that Jews would willingly accept the anti Semitism of the Pauline Epistles.

Although I have seen some neo Nazarenes and neo Ebionites online but the dumbest thing is the neo Ebionites website I found quotes from Paul.

Which is dumb because historically speaking the two groups didn't except the letters of Paul but the Ebionites were known for saying Paul was a Greek hoping to marry the High Priest's daughter and got circumcised, spurned, and became incensed with Judaism.

So I don't respect that group for not properly researching the Ebionites, but the Nazarene and so called Essene sights all see it clearly and are well researched.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

Well if you do not believe it don't quote it. In doing so you show yourself a hypocrite.

That goes for the rest of you as well.

Why use a book you do not deem Gods words, true, accurate or inspired?

Just stick to your extra biblical writings and mystical oracles of men.

And leave the Holy Preserved words of God to us who believe it is all true, accurate, inspired, and complete.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

No one is making themselves "God", Chester.

You make yourself god by saying what is God's word and what is not.

You make yourself god by Making privately interpretations of the inspired writings of God given to Paul as well as ignoring all signs of a prophet, and Apostle working in Paul and well as his acceptance by the eleven plus Matthias. As well as the witness of God's words throughout scriptures.

You make yourself god by ignoring the Scriptures than plainly speak and delved into those that do not, twisting them to your own destruction instead of just believing them simply as they are stated.

You make yourself god by thinking you are wiser than a holy and righteous God to keep his promise for him by believing you can interpret and preserve his words for him through your wisdom.

I too hear Jesus more clearly especially through his apostle to the Gentiles Paul as well as all the others preserved scriptures including those you do not believe are true, preserved, inspired and complete.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: SethTsaddik

Well if you do not believe it don't quote it. In doing so you show yourself a hypocrite.

That goes for the rest of you as well.

Why use a book you do not deem Gods words, true, accurate or inspired?

Just stick to your extra biblical writings and mystical oracles of men.

And leave the Holy Preserved words of God to us who believe it is all true, accurate, inspired, and complete.

You know, no one is trying to take your "book" away from you. This is the "Conspiracies in Religion" section. If you want to be agreed with or enjoy like minded conversation on the bible, then go to the part of this site that's strictly for the fundamental believers.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

No one is making themselves "God", Chester.

You make yourself god by saying what is God's word and what is not.

You make yourself god by Making privately interpretations of the inspired writings of God given to Paul as well as ignoring all signs of a prophet, and Apostle working in Paul and well as his acceptance by the eleven plus Matthias. As well as the witness of God's words throughout scriptures.

You make yourself god by ignoring the Scriptures than plainly speak and delved into those that do not, twisting them to your own destruction instead of just believing them simply as they are stated.

You make yourself god by thinking you are wiser than a holy and righteous God to keep his promise for him by believing you can interpret and preserve his words for him through your wisdom.

I too hear Jesus more clearly especially through his apostle to the Gentiles Paul as well as all the others preserved scriptures including those you do not believe are true, preserved, inspired and complete.

And you made that book your "god", which has blinded you to seeing how Paul is the one Jesus warned His followers about in Matthew.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor
not at all, the Lord Of Hosts, my lord Jesus Christ is my God and Saviour.

But do you not know what sayth the scriptures concerning God's word?

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

As God doeth magnify his word above his name I too give great adherence and love toward his word. As the Psalmist says,

Psalms 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. ]/b]

For his word giveth the simple great understanding

Psalms 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

But you and those like you are not simple, but see yourself as the standard by which to judge God as incapable of preserving his words to every generation as promised in Ps 12:6, 7, and judge his inspired words to Paul as wickedness and foolishness. But as God by inspiration has preserved He says,

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

a reply to: SethTsaddikbut everytime you have asked I use scriptures to prove it is God's word but then you say I can't use scriptures.

That is because you do not believe God's word the Holy Bible as pure, true, righteous, preserved, complete and without corruption. Or that it is his word.