"God's cleansing" or Devil tormenting the good people before the Day of the Lord?

a reply to: randyvs

Sure if it makes you feel better. You have my blessing, pillock.

originally posted by: Peeple

originally posted by: 2012newstart
Still, clearly there are people who at least try to live what the Bible prescribes

Psalm 137
"Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us
He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks"

Judges 19:25
"So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them and they raped her and abused her throughout the night..."

Jeremiah 19:9
"And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons an their daughters..."

Deuteronomy 25:11-12
"When men fight with one another and the wife draws near to rescue her husband. .. Then you shall cut off her hand."

Slavery, cannibalism, rape, stoning your own child, killing babies, mutilation. ..
If you think this book makes you a good person you'll rightfully rot in hell.
Burn your bible and grow a heart and a brain.

Ah yes, picking through to find bits and pieces that seem horrific, without understanding I can see.

Do you agree that people have done unthinkable evil to one another? Do you think that death alone is justice for, let's say, a man who abuses and tortures little children (of his own free will--let's not assume that proxy God is responsible becasue that man chose his own path)

Psalm 137, as far as I can read it, speaks of captives being forced to sing to their captors-- and that is the song they made up. Can you blame them? "By the rivers of Babylon there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. For there they carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion."

The words you mentioned are the song they sang. Context is key.

Judges 19 does not say God commanded that they rape the woman, but rather recounts events that happened. Rape happens and on occasion it is recorded rather than lost in shame. Obviously, this still happens to this day. Awful.

Jeremiah-- Well, pretty harsh treatment, I'd admit. The lines preceeding show that the inhabitants of the city sacrificed their children to Ba'al and shed innocent blood. So I suppose they would be getting a really sick taste of their own medicine.

Here's the reality-- certain people have done the most abominable depraved things to one another, for prophit or for fun. Should they be punished at all? Or simply die like the rest of us who have chosen different paths (not perfect here-- but am sickened by some of the things I read about--cannot even conceive of some of the evil-- for example, I saw an article of a stepfather who kept throwing his little daughter back in a pool until she drowned. What is justice for him? And that is not the worst of it, I'm sure you know.)

Do you have an answer?
And remember, for any who were to truly realize the wrong he or she has committed-- which imagine that the worse you've done, the horror of such a realization-- shall receive mercy.

Jesus commands us to love our God (creator) and to love His creation. He brought us a New Covenant to follow and a way to turn evil on its back. Of course we fall short of his perfection, but why not strive?

Peace.

a reply to: zosimov

You're obviously a good person, your arguments sure are valid, unfortunately it is missing the point.

The OP was stating something along the lines of, if you take the bible literal and use that as guidelines for your life, does it make you a good person?
To me the answer has to be, no.

a reply to: Peeple

Hey, I'm short on time (lucky for you probably) but I really wanted to thank you for a kind and civil reply!

I usually don't wade into religious debates because they get so messy..

So the civility is definitely appreciated.

a reply to: 2012newstart

It is evident that the good people suffer more in their personal lives.

How's that? Good people have lousy relationships with their friends, family and the world in general? I guess you find a lot of "good people" in prisons then, eh?

If we have only months left before the great change promised by prophets old and new, (call it whatever you like to), then it is clear the devil will be enraged most of all times before.

Only months? What kind of "great change" should we expect in only months? An asteroid? Earthquakes? World war and nuclear strikes on Europe and the Americas? Will Jesus and his space ship, "The New Jerusalem" finally land?

a reply to: 2012newstart

Let us imagine for just a moment that a happy World is a sustainable World. Sustainable means able to continue on with a broad degree of resources, the utilization of which does not result in waste products building up faster than they can be re-processed within our biosphere.

Regulating factors would be population and level of usage (on par or above par for re-processing).

When balance is reached, efforts should be made to reward balance and not reward imbalance. If the World or regional populations are higher than sustainable then limiting population growth through birth control would be advised.

As it stands, Worldwide birth rates have been declining since 1950.

Photos from wikipedia Birth_rate

The high birthrate in the African countries has been attributed to the diversion of resources away from family planning education and birth control distribution to the fighting of HIV/AIDS. Rather than allocating new funds, other funds were diverted under lobbying efforts by religio/political organizations that are opposed to birth control.

But if, on the other hand, certain people are not interested in sustainability, but rather some sort of cataclysmic disruption of the current system in favor of a restructuring which favors themselves as recipients of all the good things, then perhaps we should look there for where "evil" is coming from, tormenting those who are starving for resources and choking on waste.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Taxiarch

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Peeple

So you can take a single sentence out of the bible and use that single sentence to condemn it

That's called quote mining

It's a bit like your chief Dawkins saying the earth was seeded by aliens, oh wait, he did

Context not single sentences

Engage the brain before doing the nazi book burning thing

So you can send a message criticizing the OP without adding to the topic and think that you are right in insulting someone referencing Nazis and book burnings like that isn't insanely inappropriate AND feel positively righteous for doing so?

That's called WTF?

Sorry
Let's all go burn books
Great idea

Who the hell said anything about book burnings? Not me, that was you.

Dollars to donuts I guarantee you get a thrill every time some nut job Pastor burns a pile of Qur'ans and are only referencing book burnings to be outrageous because you somehow find making inappropriate Nazi based comments a positive way to express your "faith."

Again, WTF is your problem? Someone expresses legitimate concerns over the contents of the Bible and you compare that to Nazi book burnings? It happens that there is a lot of disturbing contents in the OT and I also guarantee you don't know how to explain how God could make laws requiring violent retribution for minor infractions like wood gathering or defending your husband, death sentences and the removal of her hand being ordered by a "just" god.

So in frustration and like a high school freshman you lash out arrogantly all the while having absolutely no clue what you're even talking about. You think that blindly defending a book you don't understand and probably never even read except in excerpts makes you righteous but it only makes you a religious bully who takes others opinions and twists them to make them seem evil when the Bible is a book of much evil and probably so are you (evil). Who else would bring up Nazis in a Christian thread and be clueless to the insanity of such a comparison. You are awful.

originally posted by: savemebarry

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Peeple

So you can take a single sentence out of the bible and use that single sentence to condemn it

That's called quote mining

It's a bit like your chief Dawkins saying the earth was seeded by aliens, oh wait, he did

Context not single sentences

Engage the brain before doing the nazi book burning thing

Talks about a book written by insane people, to enslave insane people by telling them ghost stories involving a super duper sky wizard...

Says "Engage Brain"..

Ohhhh...

Best response ever!!! What is that dudes problem, he obviously has little knowledge of the Bible as if he did he would understand why people criticize it even if he didn't agree. the fact that he immaturely insults people is proof he is a typical Christian hypocrite with no clue of his own inadequate understanding of pretty much everything under the sun who only knows how to troll religious threads persecuting atheists and other non Christians for being well educated and having common sense.

Not someone who I imagine does a lot of independent thinking or research and probably relies on men to tell him what to believe about Christianity and dismisses all reason and logic when applying it to religion.

Definitely under the influence of the demiurge Yaldabaoth and not the Spirit of Truth or even Jesus as if he was a follower of Jesus he would behave like a respectable human being. He is a Churchian, not a disciple of Jesus. He probably needs every word explained to him and comes here to insult people who are smart because he is jealous.

a reply to: pthena

Actually, the high birth rate in the undeveloped countries is for the same reason the birth rate has always been high in undeveloped countries.

When you lack the medical care of first world nations and the birth rate for infants and children is high couple with a subsistence lifestyle, a set of parents needs to have a lot of children in order to ensure at least one or two to take over the farm and to have enough ready hands to spread out the labor.

As a country develops, cultural attitudes toward children and family size don't shift as quickly leading to the high numbers of children per family living in abject poverty like was seen in early industrial England and the US and is now seen in many second world countries because improving health care can ensure that more of those children live, but cultural attitudes and practices don't shift as quickly.

In Africa, they want to skip the whole "developing country" phase and try to force third world people to live without the survival cultures needed for those conditions.

a reply to: ketsuko

I've never been in Africa, so I really don't know what goes on there. What I recall though is that many countries had money invested in family planning education. HIV/AIDS was/is a terrible force of depopulation. When the U.S. decided to fund the "war against AIDS" there were strings attached, ie. shutting down family planning clinics.

The most notorious of the attacks perennially in play are the global gag rule and the effort to defund the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA). The global gag rule, also known as the Mexico City policy, was devised by the Reagan administration in 1984 to impose an expansive set of antiabortion rules on the overseas family planning program. That same year, socially conservative activists began accusing the program of complicity in coercive abortion practices—citing the annual U.S. contribution to UNFPA, which provides family planning assistance in China. Ever since, Republican presidents have imposed the global gag rule and blocked the U.S. contribution to UNFPA, while Democratic presidents—including President Obama—have rescinded the gag rule and supported UNFPA. In between presidential elections, the political battles over these issues have continued almost unabated in Congress.
global-gag-rule-and-fights-over-fu nding-unfpa-issues-wont-go-away

Focus on HIV-Aids cost family planning a decade, says UN population chief (2011)

a reply to: pthena

So basically, saying that you refuse to fund abortion is synonymous with no funding for family planning?

Since when did abortion become the ONLY means of family planning available in third world countries? I missed out on when abortion was made my only birth control option. Time was when I had pills, implants, condoms, abstinence, adoption, spermicides ...

And, of course, just because we refuse to send foreign aid to fund abortions doesn't mean that women in those countries cannot fund their own abortions or that the governments of those nations cannot fund their own clinics to provide abortions for their own women if it is so very important.

a reply to: ketsuko

Since when did abortion become the ONLY means of family planning available in third world countries? I missed out on when abortion was made my only birth control option. Time was when I had pills, implants, condoms, abstinence, adoption, spermicides ...

That's the risk I took posting that, that abortion would come out front and center. The NGOs and UN and many countries that provide the education and the pills and the IUDs and the spermicides also provide abortions. I am not in favor of abortion. After I had two children I got a vasectomy. I raised two other children besides my own. I rather favor vasectomy myself. Now days it's actually reversible with a more expensive operation.

But to cut off all family planning over abortion is a bit much in my opinion.

ETA

Another thing which I intended to bring up was with regard to migrations. As far as I know, the greatest migrations at this time are forced migrations due to conflicts in the Middle East. Birth rates are high in Syria, Iraq, Jordan. Population has skyrocketed in UAE due mostly to immigration.

So while the Mandaeans and Assyrian Christians(whose leadership relocated to Chicago) and others are either killed or forced to emigrate from Iraq and Syria, the birthrates of a homogenous ethnic religious group climbs. In a sense, while Northern European secular society is decreasing, the Religious RCC and Islamic and Jewish ultra-orthodox and American Fundamentalist people are multiplying to fill the population gaps. It's like a race to political numbers clout through reproduction rather than proselytizing. That's probably a very non-PC observation, but there it is.

There is no shortage of humanity such that reproduction should be considered virtuous and holy as opposed to not reproducing.

a reply to: pthena

Reproduction, in the Biblical sense is equated with knowledge, semi-esoterically.

My point is that while chastity and asceticism are noble, they are also diametrically opposed to the human experience.

Those who choose chastity always end up weird, it's just not healthy. Also procreation and sex in general can be very religious experiences. I mention this because I just read an article by a female Rabbi about Asherah and she mentioned that sex can be used for enlightenment if done right and I thought it an interesting thing to share.

A more healthy version of sex magick done in marriage tantrically is supposed to be an insanely pleasurable enlightening experience that I admit I am dying to learn, not that sex isn't fun but I would like a spiritual partnet and they are hard to find.

Did the vasectomy have any effect on pleasure?

a reply to: Taxiarch

My point is that while chastity and asceticism are noble, they are also diametrically opposed to the human experience.

That reminds me of a riddle I heard once?

Question: Why did the show Happy Days end?

Answer: The producers figured the audience wouldn't like to see a 50 something Fonze getting all the chicks.

Those who choose chastity always end up weird, it's just not healthy.

20 years ago, I was engaged for 5 months. She said it would be an educational experience. Indeed, it was! Why spoil the education by blurring the lines? Makes more sense to reflect upon it and draw lessons from it.

Did the vasectomy have any effect on pleasure?

No. The impact was the provision of a psychological tool. Mother Nature (aka Animal instinct to spread one's DNA as broadly and as quickly as possible) would say, "Do it! Go for it! You only live once, get you a great big legacy!"

Then I could laugh, "You do know what futility means, right?"

a reply to: pthena

That's funny I remember learning why a t.v. show is said to have "jumped the shark."

It was because that was the point when Happy Days had run it's course, I didn't consider the Fonz' age but he was old so it makes sense but it also got to be ridiculous in plot.

I live a pretty ascetic lifestyle, I read ancient scriptures, Philo and other philosophy (he is my favorite though) and I am not at all promiscuous because I don't have a desire to sleep around.

But from time to time I meet a girl, do the deed, I don't consider it sinful as it would destroy my mental health and confidence if I never had sex and then people start thinking that you are weird so there is social pressure which I relatively don't care about because I am a loner, a hermit essentially. I got my nice apt. and my books and that's all I need.

BUT... I got no kids, no wife and no one to learn Tantra with, somethings that I eventually want.

I am also Muslin/Gnostic so I can get a wife, I just have to start attending Mosque or they will not really help with that as they prefer their daughters marry Muslims who go to Mosque, it's a cultural thing.

I am just not able to get there because I live far from the nearest Mosque and have a slight case of I hate leaving my house, not out of fear but out of comfort.

When I get of my butt I will be able to solve my lack of wife problem, I just am not ready, I have been told by a good friend who is right that I am a sloth, I only move at my pace, when I want, lol.

Nice chat!!! Ay!!!

a reply to: windword

everything is possible, also in combination. isn't it a big enough disaster for the world the US elections? Or the Muslim migrant millions much more than the hordes of Attila the Hun, who demand the Europeans to bow down before their religion, and not they to adopt European culture (not religion)? Who would do similar if hordes of impoverished Europeans that already exist in many EU countries, storm the embassies and board ships to Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and the rest of rich Arab emirates? Isn't it obvious that the good people in general, are not among the 1% elites and suffer of unemployment, sometimes lack of health care, and other woes that should not exist in 21st century, 27 years after the collapse of communism? To say the good people live better, is not to know how the majority of the good people live. How many percents of the 1.2 bln catholic church enjoy the standard of the US Catholics? (not that all US catholics are rich, but compare them with Latin Americans). Double and triple standard is something that God will not tolerate for long, even if He is slow to deliver justice.

he Rabbis are clear, year 5776 is the year of the Messiah. I have a separate thread dedicated to it, pls check it. That makes 3 more weeks according to the rabbis. 5 more weeks according to Fatima expectations (see my relevant thread). I don't know what will happen or whether these dates will fail again. I report what is spread online and within highly dedicated communities of Catholics and Jews who believe truly, unlike the majority.

a reply to: 2012newstart

All those bad things have already happened, in some way or another. Terrible wars, nuclear bombs, black plague and germ warfare, earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, famine and pestilence.....already here, already happened.

What I would like for you explain is your statement and how it is evident that "good people suffer more in life". I don't see that as being the case. Good things happen to bad people everyday, and, at the same time the sun is shining on those who do selfish and greedy things, bad things are happening to good people, this is fact.

But in my experience, not everyone one who suffers is "good" and not everyone who enjoys sunshine and bounty is responsible for doing good things or being a generally good person.

The Rabbis are clear, year 5776 is the year of the Messiah.

How did they miss the Jesus years? If so, how can they be trusted by Christians to predict the coming Messiah? Didn't Jesus say that nobody, not even he would know the timing of his supposed return?

a reply to: 2012newstart

Originally posted by 2012newstart
Is the saying that God's judgment should start from his own house a true one, or is it true just the opposite?

Depends on what type judgment you’re talking about…?

Originally posted by 2012newstart
That the Devil knows his time is short, ad doing everything possible to torment not the evil sinners but the good people who try to obey God's laws?

According to various parts/stories in the Old Testament Satan does Gods bidding…why would God allow the Devil to torment good people…?

Isn’t it normally the bad people who invite the demons in…?

Originally posted by 2012newstart
There isn't a sinless person, "humanum est errare". Still, clearly there are people who at least try to live what the Bible prescribes, and there are people who don't. In most cases, the goods of this world go to that second group. Although they suffer too.

Think about this…

There are Christians out there who sin all the time, they sleep around, take drugs, lie, drink too much alcohol etc…and yet there are some atheists out there who hardly do any sins…and yet it’s the Christians who are supposedly the saved ones!…how does that work out exactly…?

Originally posted by 2012newstart
If we have only months left before the great change promised by prophets old and new, (call it whatever you like to), then it is clear the devil will be enraged most of all times before.

How many months do we have left according too (fill in the blank)…?

Originally posted by 2012newstart
So we see phenomena not seen before, in terms of local conflicts, absurd migration million flows, and paradoxically, worsening not betterment of life of people living in the most developed part of the planet, that are also Christians.

But we’ve had conflicts on and off for centuries. People have been living under this end time prophecy for 2016 years!!!…

When Christians see conflicts today, instead of acting like Jesus would by playing the good Samaritan; they quickly run to their Bibles, to see which end time prophecy is being fulfilled!!!

That is how Satan is Winning!…Wake up!

Originally posted by 2012newstart
If we assume that hypothesis as true, that the devil is in action right now, and not God who reserves the punishment of the wicked people for last, then we should change the view that "God's cleansing starts first from his own house". I don't see such "cleansing" anyway in the churches to occur.

Your thoughts on that?

But why would God not also be in action, has he gone AWOL or something…

According to the bible and Jesus, God is always with us through the power of the Holy Spirit…The Holy spirit does the cleansing within Gods house…which is inside the “Living Temple” of the Body…


- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: 2012newstart


Isn’t it normally the bad people who invite the demons in…?

----that's what I am saying! The evil people are servants of the devil and he doesn't torment them, he attacks the good people instead.

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: 2012newstart
There are Christians out there who sin all the time, they sleep around, take drugs, lie, drink too much alcohol etc…and yet there are some atheists out there who hardly do any sins…and yet it’s the Christians who are supposedly the saved ones!…how does that work out exactly…?

Originally posted by 2012newstart
If we have only months left before the great change promised by prophets old and new, (call it whatever you like to), then it is clear the devil will be enraged most of all times before.

How many months do we have left according too (fill in the blank)…?

----I don't know. I quoted some other people what they are saying. It may happen we have one year or more.

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: 2012newstart
But we’ve had conflicts on and off for centuries. People have been living under this end time prophecy for 2016 years!!!…

-----yes but not 2 world wars in 100 years. Today we have nuclear powers such as North Korea that wouldn't think much before the first use of nuclear weapons. Let alone the jihadists, if they get them.

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: 2012newstart
When Christians see conflicts today, instead of acting like Jesus would by playing the good Samaritan; they quickly run to their Bibles, to see which end time prophecy is being fulfilled!!!

That is how Satan is Winning!…Wake up!

Originally posted by 2012newstart
If we assume that hypothesis as true, that the devil is in action right now, and not God who reserves the punishment of the wicked people for last, then we should change the view that "God's cleansing starts first from his own house". I don't see such "cleansing" anyway in the churches to occur.

Your thoughts on that?

But why would God not also be in action, has he gone AWOL or something…

-----That's what I am saying, God will act soon and will reverse the absurdity of the world we are living in! Woe to those who find themselves on the wrong side!

a reply to: 2012newstart

Originally posted by 2012newstart
----that's what I am saying! The evil people are servants of the devil and he doesn't torment them, he attacks the good people instead.

So what you’re saying is that it’s the evil people who are tormenting the good guys…but doesn’t it work both ways…i.e. the good people can also have a positive affect on the bad guys…

But anyway, that’s not exactly what you said in your OP post below…

Originally posted by 2012newstart
That the Devil knows his time is short, ad doing everything possible to torment not the evil sinners but the good people who try to obey God's laws?

You’re saying the devil/demons are not tormenting the evil sinner types but the good people instead…

You see, in the Bible (with the exception of the story of Job) the demons torment the bad people, not the other way around…

Bad people may have an effect on good people, that’s true, but that’s not really the same thing as the devil tormenting good people directly…

And remember what I said in my first post; in the Bible Satan does Gods bidding…i.e. He does what God orders him to do…this is normally done to teach a person that they are on the wrong path etc…

Selah…

Originally posted by Joecroft
How many months do we have left according too (fill in the blank)…?

Originally posted by 2012newstart
----I don't know. I quoted some other people what they are saying. It may happen we have one year or more.

But didn’t you say 3 weeks and 5 weeks in your reply to windword below…

Originally posted by 2012newstart
he Rabbis are clear, year 5776 is the year of the Messiah. I have a separate thread dedicated to it, pls check it. That makes 3 more weeks according to the rabbis. 5 more weeks according to Fatima expectations (see my relevant thread). I don't know what will happen or whether these dates will fail again. I report what is spread online and within highly dedicated communities of Catholics and Jews who believe truly, unlike the majority.

So that’s 3 weeks from your above post = Friday September the 30th 2016

And 5 weeks = Friday October the 14th 2016

I’ll be coming back to this thread on those dates, to get your personal update…

Originally posted by 2012newstart
-----That's what I am saying, God will act soon and will reverse the absurdity of the world we are living in! Woe to those who find themselves on the wrong side!

According to you or the scriptures how is God going to act…?


- JC