Some serious theological problems with the Christian religion

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: Nochzwei

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Nochzwei

I'm non-denominational. And I've lived in several states, but never South Carolina.

Have a question, if i may:
Is baptizing others with the Holy Spirit, a gift of the Holy Spirit, which is not mentioned in the Bible?

It is mentioned, if you're referring to Acts chapter 2. The baptism of the Holy Spirit, or "baptism of fire" is a secondary experience after water baptism. It just simply means being filled to overflowing with the Holy Spirit. That's the rivers of living water.

Remember the disciples received the Holy Spirit (infilling) in John chapter 10? But Jesus told them at His ascension to not go out anD preach until they were "endued with power from on High", the baptism of the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. They also were refilled again in Acts 4.

its interesting to me how you talk about the holy spirit almost like its a commodity.

a reply to: TzarChasm

I don't know what you mean. I'm just repeating what the Bible says, you can reject it that's fine, bit it's my faith and I believe what it says to be the truth. The person who asked me the question was wanting to know what I perceived to be the truth in regards to what the Bible says.

I often get the impression that you just want to troll people here and aren't interested in an actual dialogue with any of us Christians.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: Nochzwei

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Nochzwei

I'm non-denominational. And I've lived in several states, but never South Carolina.

Have a question, if i may:
Is baptizing others with the Holy Spirit, a gift of the Holy Spirit, which is not mentioned in the Bible?

It is mentioned, if you're referring to Acts chapter 2. The baptism of the Holy Spirit, or "baptism of fire" is a secondary experience after water baptism. It just simply means being filled to overflowing with the Holy Spirit. That's the rivers of living water.

Remember the disciples received the Holy Spirit (infilling) in John chapter 10? But Jesus told them at His ascension to not go out anD preach until they were "endued with power from on High", the baptism of the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. They also were refilled again in Acts 4.

true, though a Born Again Spirit filled Christian, if he is to receive power or empowering to baptize with the Holy Spirit? In other words will Jesus speak to him and say go ahd and Baptize in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost?

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I often get the impression that you just want to troll people here and aren't interested in an actual dialogue with any of us Christians

Stress Testing

Stress testing (sometimes called torture testing) is a form of deliberately intense or thorough testing used to determine the stability of a given system or entity. It involves testing beyond normal operational capacity, often to a breaking point, in order to observe the results. Reasons can include:

to determine breaking points or safe usage limits
to confirm mathematical model is accurate enough in predicting breaking points or safe usage limits
to confirm intended specifications are being met
to determine modes of failure (how exactly a system fails)
to test stable operation of a part or system outside standard usage

Stress testing does have a useful function.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

He's a compilation of many gods...who weren't very nice.

As individual tribal deities they served useful purposes in polytheistic societies. Put them together as an empire one and only, big time problems. Here's an article I ran across last night accidently.

Gods, or God?
Perhaps the Greeks and Romans had the right idea with their polytheism.
October 23, 2007|Mary Lefkowitz | Mary Lefkowitz is professor emerita at Wellesley College and the author of "Greek Gods, Human Lives" and the forthcoming "History Lesson."

Prominent secular and atheist commentators have argued lately that religion "poisons" human life and causes endless violence and suffering. But the poison isn't religion; it's monotheism. The polytheistic Greeks didn't advocate killing those who worshiped different gods, and they did not pretend that their religion provided the right answers. Their religion made the ancient Greeks aware of their ignorance and weakness, letting them recognize multiple points of view.
articles.latimes.com...

I recommend the whole article.

In case you're interested, I would estimate at least 75% of educational info I read is written by women.

LOL....not surprising. Women have gotten the short end of the stick always, when it comes to religion (esp the Bible).
The whole book is patriarchal. Oh, and animals have gotten the same short end of that stick.
Thanks for the article.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: TzarChasm

I don't know what you mean. I'm just repeating what the Bible says, you can reject it that's fine, bit it's my faith and I believe what it says to be the truth. The person who asked me the question was wanting to know what I perceived to be the truth in regards to what the Bible says.

I often get the impression that you just want to troll people here and aren't interested in an actual dialogue with any of us Christians.

im sorry if you get confused between trolling and an idle interest in exploring the gritty underbelly of judaic philosophy. the title of the thread is "some serious problems with the christian religion" which seems like the right place to put my questions and observations. back to the point i was making, the way you describe the holy spirit makes it sound like a commodity that is exclusively available from the same people who made the holy spirit "necessary". supply and demand. or is the economy of spirituality beneath your notice?

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Women have gotten the short end of the stick always, when it comes to religion (esp the Bible).

Thinking outside the box comes more naturally for those who have been pushed out.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Women have gotten the short end of the stick always, when it comes to religion (esp the Bible).

Thinking outside the box comes more naturally for those who have been pushed out.

creativity is a feminine trait according to some traditions. just like math is a male trait. but these things can be both learned and shared, so there is plenty of overlap available.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: NOTurTypical

I often get the impression that you just want to troll people here and aren't interested in an actual dialogue with any of us Christians

Stress Testing

Stress testing (sometimes called torture testing) is a form of deliberately intense or thorough testing used to determine the stability of a given system or entity. It involves testing beyond normal operational capacity, often to a breaking point, in order to observe the results. Reasons can include:

to determine breaking points or safe usage limits
to confirm mathematical model is accurate enough in predicting breaking points or safe usage limits
to confirm intended specifications are being met
to determine modes of failure (how exactly a system fails)
to test stable operation of a part or system outside standard usage

Stress testing does have a useful function.

HOLY MOLY.....THAT describes what human beings are experiencing daily on this planet. Christians call it being "tested or purified". I see it (now) like we are ants in an ant farm being tortured here. If you are a religious person, you endure that in hopes of a reward and bliss "on the other side".
But, when I look at the world today, and how so many people suffer (with seeming silence from "god), it's more like god is an abusive spouse.
I talked to someone last night for at least an hour. He's the dad of one of my son's friends. Anyway, he was a pastor for 20 years. He's an atheist now. I was really curious as to how he got to that point. (all the Christians that know him, just shake their heads in mock sadness, thinking he's been deceived).
What he told me was really interesting. He said, "I got really tired of trying to tell people that god was there, and if they just had enough faith through their trials and heartaches, it would all be ok". Because he said, IT DIDN'T get ok. He said god didn't answer like he promised. He worded it a lot better than that, but this man knew scripture backwards and forwards. He's now a magician (very good one I might add), and travels around doing magic shows.
He said he just couldn't live lying to people anymore. The longer he was a pastor, the more holes he found in the theology of the bible.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

What he told me was really interesting. He said, "I got really tired of trying to tell people that god was there, and if they just had enough faith through their trials and heartaches, it would all be ok". Because he said, IT DIDN'T get ok. He said god didn't answer like he promised. He worded it a lot better than that, but this man knew scripture backwards and forwards. He's now a magician (very good one I might add), and travels around doing magic shows.

haha, the whole "yes/no/maybe" prayer trichotomy IS a sort of auto-illusion, sleight of logic you use on yourself. i actually learned about it in a video called the worlds greatest illusion. you can get roughly the same results from a dead spider or a soup can. but thats a whole threads worth by itself.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Women have gotten the short end of the stick always, when it comes to religion (esp the Bible).

Thinking outside the box comes more naturally for those who have been pushed out.

Boy howdy.
I wish more men were like you.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor
Back in the late 80s some Wiccans I knew would call themselves Buddhists. That was their way of avoiding arguments because as they saw it, Buddhism was more socially respectable at that time and place.

Similarly, some Atheists may call themselves Pagan for pretty much the same reason. The current favored response is: "I'm not religious, but I am spiritual".

What it boils down to is that some people feel a compulsion to spread some "good news" that everyone must hear. What they say should really be tested. People who don't have such a compulsion are freer to investigate according to their own needs or desires without guilt.

Whether the former pastor is an atheist or not, doesn't matter, "atheist" for him may be shorthand for "I've got no god to push on you."

Uses of labels

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

What he told me was really interesting. He said, "I got really tired of trying to tell people that god was there, and if they just had enough faith through their trials and heartaches, it would all be ok". Because he said, IT DIDN'T get ok. He said god didn't answer like he promised. He worded it a lot better than that, but this man knew scripture backwards and forwards. He's now a magician (very good one I might add), and travels around doing magic shows.

haha, the whole "yes/no/maybe" prayer trichotomy IS a sort of auto-illusion, sleight of logic you use on yourself. i actually learned about it in a video called the worlds greatest illusion. you can get roughly the same results from a dead spider or a soup can. but thats a whole threads worth by itself.

Well, I wonder about that, too. I've had prayers answered....but, I've also had them ignored. I'm tired of begging to be forgiven, begging for others to be helped, begging in general. I mean, my kids don't have to beg me to be good to them. I WANT to be. I WANT to protect them. I WANT to help people. I WANT to help animals. I realized I don't need a god to tell me those things. It is right. I'm not perfect. I screw up sometimes. But, jeez....I'm doing the best I can in this mucked up world. Thing is, I see more willingness in many people to do good, than I see coming from any god.
This world is a mess.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

What he told me was really interesting. He said, "I got really tired of trying to tell people that god was there, and if they just had enough faith through their trials and heartaches, it would all be ok". Because he said, IT DIDN'T get ok. He said god didn't answer like he promised. He worded it a lot better than that, but this man knew scripture backwards and forwards. He's now a magician (very good one I might add), and travels around doing magic shows.

haha, the whole "yes/no/maybe" prayer trichotomy IS a sort of auto-illusion, sleight of logic you use on yourself. i actually learned about it in a video called the worlds greatest illusion. you can get roughly the same results from a dead spider or a soup can. but thats a whole threads worth by itself.

Well, I wonder about that, too. I've had prayers answered....but, I've also had them ignored. I'm tired of begging to be forgiven, begging for others to be helped, begging in general. I mean, my kids don't have to beg me to be good to them. I WANT to be. I WANT to protect them. I WANT to help people. I WANT to help animals. I realized I don't need a god to tell me those things. It is right. I'm not perfect. I screw up sometimes. But, jeez....I'm doing the best I can in this mucked up world. Thing is, I see more willingness in many people to do good, than I see coming from any god.
This world is a mess.

cohesion and harmony as a species is something no god can give us. we must grow it ourselves.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I've had prayers answered....but, I've also had them ignored.

Numinous_(disambiguation)
Numinous is an English adjective and noun, taken from the Latin numen, “divinity.” But where numen refers to an objective divine being, numinous as an adjective refers to a subjective state. Numinous the noun refers to that which stimulates the subjective state. For example, a numinous grotto is distinct from the numen of the grotto.

For personal reasons I've had to come to terms with numinous experiences.

Preliminary conclusions include:

1) They have occurred to people for as long as recorded history.
2) They predate the creation of any existing major religion.
3) They do not prove the validity of any particular religion or doctrine.

People who mention these experiences to religious authorities are told either that "this confirms that the authorized deity is real." or "You are demon possessed and must be cleansed" or "Unclean! You must die!"

Here's an old saying that I just made up: In order to demonize people and teachings, the word demon had to first be demonized.

Look up demon in Wikipedia. Literally means "of divine origin". Judaic (Judaism and Christianity) propaganda did a flip-flop on longstanding definition so that people automatically associate demon as evil. How messed up is that?

a reply to: pthena

For personal reasons I've had to come to terms with numinous experiences.

I hear ya. I've had many. But, you are correct....these "numinous experiences" happen to many people, in all walks of life.
I can't explain why, and I sure can't put it in the nice little "religious box" of Christianity or Judaism anymore...or that particular deity anymore. My box has collapsed. I think I'm pretty much jumping up and down on the pieces of it too, lol
That's ok, though. When you finally have to come to terms with some really UGLY things staring you in the face about this world, and you are sick and tired of blaming yourself and others for it, you realize, "hey, wait a second....why the hell isn't this god apologizing for putting us in this situation in the first place????
The only thing that makes even a tiny bit of sense to me is this, the "god of THIS world" isn't good. If there's another one that does really care, and perhaps that seems to be what Jesus was all about. He even told Pilate that his ONE reason for coming was to "bear witness to the TRUTH". What truth? That we are all living in a reality engineered by a really evil being, and that another higher being "so loved this world", that he used Jesus to show us what he was like. Maybe that's why he could ask for his Father to forgive those crucifying him. They really didn't know what they were doing. Perhaps we are projects of an evil entity, who enjoys watching us all suffer, fight, and kill. He even made animals kill and eat each other. He made mosquitoes, chiggers, and fleas!!!
What the heck for?? What insanity that is!
The sun..which is necessary for photosynthesis and all life on this planet, will pretty much kill you if you get to much of it.
Nature, in all it's beauty and majesty, will wipe your arse out in a nanosecond if you wind up in a Tsunami or an earthquake. No partiality, either.
The Christian platitudes don't work anymore as answers. They just don't. Either god isn't omnipotent, or he doesn't give a sh**.

a reply to: Nochzwei

Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. We just lay hands on people and pray for them to receive. It's a gift that needs to be pursued and prayed for.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor
Here's a link to the post I made when I first started posting again.

thread1123584/pg5#pid20895492
Many former Christians never find the need to take this step. That's OK
Some decide they must.

You are yours.
No one can possibly know you as you do,
what you want to,
feel you should,
or feel you must.

The heck with what people who don't know you think,
including me.

Peace out

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Dude.. Do you even read & comprehend what utter nonsense you are spewing out ?

Firstly god with a lower case 😆 can't hear you moaning & complaining due to the fact that there is no god.. But let's entertain your belief for a moment. Let's imagine there was some "elite" being.

Do you honestly believe he/she or it would listen to the ramblings of every person on the planet ? Then let's zoom out & scale it up.. Do you think he is listening to all the ET's on other worlds in our milkyway Galaxy with their issues? That's aproximitly 200 billion planets with life if you believe that 1 in 9 planets would host complex life. (Due to the Drake equation & law of averages)

Now that's just one galaxy dude there are well over 200 billion Galaxies in our singular universe.
Now let's say our universe is 1 of possibly countless universes all connected through concentric patterns & geometry (spiral or Fibonacci sequence)

Now factor all of that & realize that your views & your issues are so infanticidal yet they are important as everything matters & I would't want you to think I'm been difficult, rude or obnoxious.

Life & nature & the Multiverse are the systems we are apart of & you should take comfort in that thought.

The laws of nature & laws of physics are what govern us all ! The strong survive & the weak will make an untimely exit.

Anyways I wish you well in your quest for knowledge & the persuit of truth 😉 ✌🏻

a reply to: TzarChasm
I realized I hadn't responded back.

creativity is a feminine trait according to some traditions. just like math is a male trait. but these things can be both learned and shared, so there is plenty of overlap available.

Even my Calculus teacher was a woman.
She sometimes told stories about Archimedes of Syracuse. Makes math interesting.

She told us once about a Halloween party. She wore a toga and seaweed, and was all wet. Nobody guessed who she was. She said, "I'm the guy who got drowned for revealing the Pythagorean secret, 'the existence of irrational numbers'"