Contrails or Chemtrails? You decide.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Box of Rain

So the vast majority of the visible stuff in a persistent contrail is just normal water ice crystals (like a cirrus cloud).

"The vast majority"? All visible contrails are visible because water vapor condenses on particualtes, namely jet exhaust.

The water vapor condensing (then freezing) on particulates of jet exhaust is how a contrail originally forms -- not how a contrail spreads into a cloud-cover. A contrail spreads into a persistent contrail and into a cloud-cover haze by the chain reaction of ice crystal condensing on ice crystal condensing on ice crystal, NOT by condensing on more exhaust soot.

But I get you, the 'vast majority' of the biosphere is benign. Its the little bits of toxins like heavy metals, aerosolized chemical compounds and pollutants in general that are causing all the health issues, not hi altitude water.

It's not the little bits of toxins and heavy metals in jet exhaust that worry me the most (although they are still a concern); I'm more worried about industrial air pollutants from factory smokestacks and automobiles, each of which produce far far far more total pollution than jet engines.

Granted, jet engines certainly add to the overall pollution, but they add only a small amount compared to other sources. Persistent contrail concern me more because of the sun-blocking cloud cover they create, and less so the jet exhaust particulates that are associated with them.

When it comes to toxins, heavy metals, particulates, and aerosol air pollution, factories and automobiles are a much larger concern (and a much much larger contributor) than aircraft.

a reply to: Box of Rain

You're preaching to the choir, I understand how water vapor condenses in the atmosphere. At higher altitude the persistence is due to ice crystals and prevailing winds in the stratosphere.

Down here, coal fired power plants emit steam for similar reasons, just the temperature down here is higher and the vapor dissipates sooner than ice 'dissipates' in the stratosphere.

Iv'e argued about seeing the dust rain down from the contrails here on the west coast, its visible on the western skyline at times under the right conditions. It does eventually fall out, it has to.

Otherwise there would be eternal cloud cover, like Venus. Now tell me about it blocking sunlight, which I am aware of as well.

The most recent clear blue sky I remember was the day after 911. The bluest, blue sky overhead all day, due to suspension of air traffic.

a reply to: smarterthanyou

My wife and I, and another couple were going to lunch at Olive Garden a couple of years ago. When we exited our cars in the parking lot we all happened to look up and saw this weird contrail grid pattern overhead. It really looked like there was a netting over our heads. What added to the aww of the moment, we watched this plane with a long wing span flying at what looked like 90 degrees with two trailing contrails that were 3 times wider than an average contrail you would see exiting a plane. It was expelling a pure white thick contrail! We all looked at each other and just shrugged it off saying that looked weird.

Don't ask me why I didn't take a picture of it. I keep asking myself why I didn't. I don't like coming across as a conspiracy nut job, so it's probably one of the reasons I didn't want to start taking pictures in front of the other couple. We were also on our lunch break, and we only had so much time to have lunch before making our way back to work.

I've read skeptics responses on the issue who say the difference in contrail thickness is due to the altitude and temperature. However. the plane we witnessed was rising in altitude at a rapid assent and it's contrail was consistent and expanding much quicker.

I'm in my late 50's and live within a couple of miles of an international airport. There were many days growing up, after playing basketball on a warm summer's day, we would relax lying in the cool grass gazing up at the sky or sit on a park bench gazing into the sky. We would observe many contrails overhead, none as weird as what I've seen over the last few years. There are times I have viewed some contrails today that don't even compare to the contrail thickness I've seen during my younger years and in the past few years.

Sure contrails will expand overtime in the atmosphere, I've seen them expand growing up. However, the expanse wasn't so thick and it's white contrail intensity was much more faded than today.

Some say it's because of the engines in today's planes. They give off a much different contrail. However, why would I see normal contrails like I've seen years ago along side some of these wide other more expansive contrails? I would think a majority of these commercial planes would be fitted with the same type of engine. The atmospheric conditions haven't changed since I witnessed contrails a long time ago. Planes also flew at different altitudes and I observed crossing contrails, but their contrails were always the same! Never did I ever see a grid pattern like we see today.

I really don't know what to make of it. Considering the amount of conspiracy revolved around these odd contrails, you would think the media would put a documentary together to put this conspiracy to rest. Unless they're being told a story by our government to keep the story quiet because it is being used for climate control.

a reply to: WeRpeons

You're right. Modern civil jets are pretty much fitted with the same engines, high bypass ratio engines, or HBPR for short. There are many different types of hbpr engine though. A CFM56, for example would power an A320 or a 737 and has a bypass ratio of about 5:1. A bigger aircraft like a 777 or A380 would be powered by a very much larger engine like the RR Trent 900 with a bypass ratio of 9:1. The former engine will deliver about 25,000lb thrust while the latter one is in the 100,000lb class (general figures). This will result in different contrails in similar conditions and are just two examples. In addition to the the main variable is the weather. The humidity in the ambient air could be massively different at 28,000ft than it is at 32,000ft and a mile sideways. That means it is perfectly normal that you'll see some persistent trails and some shorts ones at the same time in apparent close proximity. I see it every time I go out with my camera.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Box of Rain


Iv'e argued about seeing the dust rain down from the contrails here on the west coast, its visible on the western skyline at times under the right conditions. It does eventually fall out, it has to.

Pardon me if I don't believe that you can see dust falling from seven miles high. Also, grains of sand from the Sahara desert can travel thousands of miles before being deposited, and a grain of sand is way bigger and heavier than a speck of dust.

there would be eternal cloud cover, like Venus. Now tell me about it blocking sunlight, which I am aware of as well.

Maybe there would, if the atmosphere wasn't continually changing and levels of humidity and pressure rising and falling. You simply aren't thinking it through.

The most recent clear blue sky I remember was the day after 911. The bluest, blue sky overhead all day, due to suspension of air traffic.

Then maybe you need to get out and look up more often? I notice clear blue skies regularly. There have been loads already this year and my hobby is photographing aircraft. Maybe they aren't to blame then?

originally posted by: waynos

Then maybe you need to get out and look up more often? I notice clear blue skies regularly. There have been loads already this year and my hobby is photographing aircraft. Maybe they aren't to blame then?

I'm having another beautiful blue-sky day here in Northeastern Pennsylvania, just like the several I have noticed we had lately (along with some cloudy days, and some contrail-filled days).

Even on this blue-sky day, there are still jet aircraft flying over head, as I am directly below one of the jet routes to and from the three New York City metro airports and also some of the Atlantic-crossing routes. However, the atmospheric conditions at the normal jet cruising altitudes are not right for contrail persistence today (or even contrail production, in most cases), hence the blue skies.

I noticed yesterday there was a time earlier in the day that we had contrails, but later in the day the skies were clear blue. Different atmospheric conditions = different contrail conditions.

a reply to: waynos

Then maybe you need to get out and look up more often? I notice clear blue skies regularly.

Get out more often? I lived outdoors at the time, I also been around a bit longer, remember what real blue skies looked like. That pic you brought is light blue.

Edit: Obviously not from around here, either.

Pardon me if I don't believe that you can see dust falling from seven miles high.

Back lit by the setting sun off the coast.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: smarterthanyou

New York is one entry and exit point for flights to and from Europe. They go up the coast, and around New York and Massachusetts they start turning east for Europe, depending on what the upper winds are doing. Or if they're coming from Europe, they do the reverse, and around that same area is where they start heading down the coast, or into US airspace depending on where they're going in the US.

Almost every aircraft traveling from the US to Europe goes over New York. There is a mandatory North Atlantic Organised Track System with structured routes across the Atlantic The entry points for these tracks are off the coast on NY or further North. So, to go from Atlanta to London, you would first go north and a little east and more likely than not cross NY before going East to pick up your assigned track.

a reply to: intrptr

I don't think we are going to be able to have a proper conversation on this as I simply see you as exaggerating wildly to try and make or reinforce your point. If someone else believes you haven't seen a blue sky for 15 years and can see dust falling from contrails maybe they will engage with you.

No hard feelings.

a reply to: F4guy

I wasn't aware of that specific point, thanks. Explains what I'm seeing on FR24 when I look which aircraft are on their way from the US to Manchester when I'm planning a trip. Everything passing over New York, even aircraft flying up the east coast some distance to do so.

I'm in Cleveland right now, and had a fantastic blue sky yesterday. It was as blue as any sky I can remember seeing.
It mus be all the pollution out west. I'd move from that crap hole. Too much smug.

Well its all blue in the skies above me so far today

Yep, no contrails overhead here… derptydoo.

originally posted by: smarterthanyou
Well its all blue in the skies above me so far today

Here in beautiful Kern County, it's persistent contrail city.

Lots of cirrus. No cumulus.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Box of Rain

You're preaching to the choir, I understand how water vapor condenses in the atmosphere. At higher altitude the persistence is due to ice crystals and prevailing winds in the stratosphere.

Down here, coal fired power plants emit steam for similar reasons, just the temperature down here is higher and the vapor dissipates sooner than ice 'dissipates' in the stratosphere.

Iv'e argued about seeing the dust rain down from the contrails here on the west coast, its visible on the western skyline at times under the right conditions. It does eventually fall out, it has to.

Otherwise there would be eternal cloud cover, like Venus. Now tell me about it blocking sunlight, which I am aware of as well.

The most recent clear blue sky I remember was the day after 911. The bluest, blue sky overhead all day, due to suspension of air traffic.

Sorry, but no, you did not see dust falling down from a contrail. Do te ridiculous. That's an outrageous thing to say.

Just in case anyone thinks we are being cruel or unduly dismissive about intrptr's statement, the plane leaving this contrail has a wingspan of 156ft. One hundred and fifty six feet. But he can see *dust* falling from a contrail?

Just no.

originally posted by: waynos
Just in case anyone thinks we are being cruel or unduly dismissive about intrptr's statement, the plane leaving this contrail has a wingspan of 156ft. One hundred and fifty six feet. But he can see *dust* falling from a contrail?

Just no.

Maybe he was considering "fall streak" cirrus clouds:


Fall streaks can also be a characteristic of contrail-created cirrus clouds:

You guys aren't going to get anywhere if you don't know what backlit means (but I think you do).

None of those pics are back lit by the sun.

a reply to: intrptr

None of those pics are back lit by the sun.

And yet even being back lit from the sun you still won't see dust coming from a contrail.

Here you go contrails back lit by the sun...

www.google.com... 0UQ_AUICCgB

And Cirrus back lit by the sun...

www.google.com... a9-DtkQ_AUIBigB

That should help.

originally posted by: intrptr
You guys aren't going to get anywhere if you don't know what backlit means (but I think you do).

None of those pics are back lit by the sun.

What has backlit got to do with it? You can barely see a 156ft wide plane when it's leaving contrails! But you're talking about seeing particles. Even backlit, you'd need a freaking space telescope to see dust falling from 7 Miles up. I know this won't be any consolation for you, but I don't think you are lying, I just think you've seen something and jumped to the wrong conclusion. Without seeing the same thing I can't guess what it was, just definitely not dust from a contrail.