World War Zero brought down mystery civilisation of ‘sea people’

originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness

[SNIP]

Wow, psychological projection along with the rest of your issues. A troll is someone who posts things that they know will be inflammatory, you know, like making claims about a lost cultures origins and then insulting anyone who questions your complete lack of any evidence.

Now do you have any evidence at all to support your contention that a group which was made up of people genetically identical to Mediterranean's and who operated only in the Mediterranean and who wore Mediterranean clothing, sailed in Mediterranean ships, used Mediterranean languages, were actually a bunch of super navigators from the other side of the world
or not ?
lol

ATTENTION!

Enough of the off topic back and forth comments!

Stick with the subject of the OP, not each other. Discussing each other is considered Off Topic.

Anymore posts like that will be removed and Post Bans handed out after this message.

Do NOT reply to this post

originally posted by: makemap
Looking at the map. There are a total of 3 civilization that had survived that totally destroyed Troy and the rest of the civilizations in that area of the map.

#1 Persia(No longer exist, but lasted longer)
#2 Greeks
#3 Egypt
Make that 4 which could be Rome who had finish the rest of the surviving civilization off.

I wouldn't include Attila or Genghis Khan. They came in late when Rome had full control already.

The Greeks didn't survive, or at least the civilisation that raided Troy didn't survive. The Mycenaean Empire collapsed not long afterwards, with the main centres - Mycenae, Tiryns, Pylos, Gla, Thebes, Orchomenos - all being burned to the ground. Some were reoccupied and some seem to have escaped destruction (Athens, possibly Sparta) but the Dorians had now arrived with new pottery, new funeral practices and new dialects of Greek. It's a complicated subject and one that is still open to a great deal of debate. Oh and Rome was little more than a village or collection of villages at the time.

a reply to: Byrd

Is there not a Rameses stele somewhere that essentially says that the Egyptians hired Cretan warriors (male and female) to augment a defence force around this time?

As Crete was the only serious rival to Egypt pre collapse (Crete, not Egypt) and relied on sea trade, you would have thought they would have intimate knowledge of any "Sea Peoples".

I'm fully with you in that climate change, drought, possibly even tectonic activity played a huge role.

originally posted by: makemap
Looking at the map. There are a total of 3 civilization that had survived that totally destroyed Troy and the rest of the civilizations in that area of the map.

#1 Persia(No longer exist, but lasted longer)
#2 Greeks
#3 Egypt
Make that 4 which could be Rome who had finish the rest of the surviving civilization off.

I wouldn't include Attila or Genghis Khan. They came in late when Rome had full control already.

Rome didn't become a serious player until the 2nd Punic War (2nd Century BC), before that it was mostly trying to establish itself on the Italian mainland. In point of fact, Rome didn't even reach Sicily until the 2nd Punic War. Before that, it was trying to establish itself against the Umbrians, Campanians, Etruscans, etc and before that it didn't exist - so complete no to Rome.

Attila was 450 AD, nearly 1500 years after the period in question. Genghis was the 1200's AD, over 2000 years later.

originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: Byrd

Is there not a Rameses stele somewhere that essentially says that the Egyptians hired Cretan warriors (male and female) to augment a defence force around this time?

As Crete was the only serious rival to Egypt pre collapse (Crete, not Egypt) and relied on sea trade, you would have thought they would have intimate knowledge of any "Sea Peoples".

I'm fully with you in that climate change, drought, possibly even tectonic activity played a huge role.

When you say Crete, do you mean the Minoans? Sadly they had fallen to the Mycenaeans by that point, possibly because of the eruption of Thera some time before. Again, this is a controversial point. Some say that the eruption caused the Minoans to collapse, others say that the eruption weakened the Minoans enough to make them vulnerable to attack from mainland Greece.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

Yes, the Minoans - my bad, thought they were very similar in age (the events) but im out by a couple of hundred years.

I am sure i watched a documentary on Rameses and the Minoans though........i must be going senile!

The mermaid video...It's not real, it's a known hoax

originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

Yes, the Minoans - my bad, thought they were very similar in age (the events) but im out by a couple of hundred years.

I am sure i watched a documentary on Rameses and the Minoans though........i must be going senile!

I'm sure that there have been programmes that mentioned the two, especially if they mentioned the Sea Peoples. There's been a lot of speculation over the years about who they were. I remember one especially speculative programme I saw donkeys years ago that tried to link the eruption of Thera with the downfall of the Minoans and the Exodus, claiming that it happened at the time of Ramesses II. I scoffed a great deal.

originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: Byrd

Is there not a Rameses stele somewhere that essentially says that the Egyptians hired Cretan warriors (male and female) to augment a defence force around this time?

The Egyptian professional military was made up of Nubians, not Cretans.

I see some speculation on this...but it's not by Egyptologists or anyone with serious degrees in Mediterranean history.

As Crete was the only serious rival to Egypt pre collapse (Crete, not Egypt) and relied on sea trade, you would have thought they would have intimate knowledge of any "Sea Peoples".

They weren't literate, if I remember right.

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: Byrd

Is there not a Rameses stele somewhere that essentially says that the Egyptians hired Cretan warriors (male and female) to augment a defence force around this time?

The Egyptian professional military was made up of Nubians, not Cretans.

I see some speculation on this...but it's not by Egyptologists or anyone with serious degrees in Mediterranean history.

As Crete was the only serious rival to Egypt pre collapse (Crete, not Egypt) and relied on sea trade, you would have thought they would have intimate knowledge of any "Sea Peoples".

They weren't literate, if I remember right.

Crete, not literate? Hell no! The Minoans had Linear A (still undeciphered, even now) and after the Mycenaean invasion the Greek version, Linear B.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

Crete, not literate? Hell no! The Minoans had Linear A (still undeciphered, even now) and after the Mycenaean invasion the Greek version, Linear B.

Whups! My bad! yes, they were literate. But they don't appear to have been exchanging diplomatic letters with the other courts.

a reply to: Byrd

Byrd, i just ran across this,

EGYPT AND CRETE IN THE EARLY MIDDLE BRONZE AGE: A CASE OF TRADE AND CULTURAL DIFFUSION*

First of all, from the Byblite point of view, the most striking aspect of the Cretan
assemblage of Aegyptiaca is actually what is missing. Egyptian royal and private gifts, so
prominent at Byblos, are absent in MM I-II Crete. Such objects, e.g. the Khyan lid and the
statuette of User, only begin to appear on Crete later on.18 Prestigious objects19 decorated
with Egyptian royal iconography — the uraeus, the falcon, the solar disc, the pharaonic
headdress — and items inscribed with Egyptian hieroglyphics are also conspicuous by their
absence on Crete. In part, this absence must be due to Crete’s geographical and political
position vis-à-vis Egypt. From an Egyptian point of view, Crete’s distance and lack of crucial
raw materials may have made it appear as a relatively insignificant country, not worth an
Egyptian expedition or mention in official records. Only later in the XVIIIth Dynasty does
Crete enter fully into the Egyptian political and economic orbit

I'm sure you'll find it interesting.

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: Byrd

Byrd, i just ran across this,

EGYPT AND CRETE IN THE EARLY MIDDLE BRONZE AGE: A CASE OF TRADE AND CULTURAL DIFFUSION*

First of all, from the Byblite point of view, the most striking aspect of the Cretan
assemblage of Aegyptiaca is actually what is missing. Egyptian royal and private gifts, so
prominent at Byblos, are absent in MM I-II Crete. Such objects, e.g. the Khyan lid and the
statuette of User, only begin to appear on Crete later on.18 Prestigious objects19 decorated
with Egyptian royal iconography — the uraeus, the falcon, the solar disc, the pharaonic
headdress — and items inscribed with Egyptian hieroglyphics are also conspicuous by their
absence on Crete. In part, this absence must be due to Crete’s geographical and political
position vis-à-vis Egypt. From an Egyptian point of view, Crete’s distance and lack of crucial
raw materials may have made it appear as a relatively insignificant country, not worth an
Egyptian expedition or mention in official records. Only later in the XVIIIth Dynasty does
Crete enter fully into the Egyptian political and economic orbit

I'm sure you'll find it interesting.

I did, and thank you!

On reading it, I did remember some of the Cretan-style murals and objects around the 18th-20th dynasties. While the Levant played a huge part in trade, many objects seem to be swapped through them as intermediaries (as the paper says.) In any case, no Cretan armies for Ramesses!

a reply to: Drawsoho

That was made by discovery Channel as fiction. Revisit the episode and wait for the end credits where they throw up the disclaimer that none of it was real.

originally posted by: chr0naut

The Phoenicians were most frequently referred to as "the people of the sea" in ancient texts.

True, Ive always heard of their tracks all around North America, and how they showed up on the shores all over the Med. Supposedly the remnants of Atlantis, etc.

Turns out they were mostly from Spain after all

Next!

Truth is stranger than fiction.

As anyone else who saw the show, I was impressed by the
beachings.

I suppose there is an element of truth in the strangest story
sometimes, as with misinterpreted historical 'facts'.

a reply to: Butterfinger

I ran across this informative collection of papers, I'm sure the interested will find them interesting

1200 BC – A period of momentous change
Alan Peatfield, UCD
1200 BC stands as one of those symbolic dates in human civilisation. Its significance
lies in its association with a period of momentous change, a period of catastrophic
destruction and uncertainty for the people of the time. We, with the benefit of
hindsight, can see it as a prelude to the archetypal Dark Age that separates the
splendours of the Eastern Mediterranean Bronze Age from the glories of Classical
Greece and Rome.
1200 BC is, of course, a generic rather than an absolute date, one that stands
for the sweep of the history of the time, rather than a single event. If a single event is
needed to justify the association, probably it should be the victory over the invading
alliance of “peoples from the sea” that Pharaoh Ramesses III recorded at the mortuary
temple of Medinet Habu, sometimes dated to 1190 BC. It is that vast movement of
population, which current scholarship calls the “Land and Sea Peoples”, that lies at
the heart of the changes in this period. Egyptian, Ugaritic, and Hittite sources all
record threats from large numbers of invaders at this time. The Egyptians in particular
had recorded previous incursions by some of the ethnic groups they later included in
the muster of the Sea Peoples, especially the Shardana, in the earlier reigns of
Pharaohs Ramesses II and Merneptah. Indeed by 1175 BC, a more likely date for
Ramesses III’s victory, the empire of the other great power of the age, the Hittites,
had been destroyed, as had the independent Canaanite kingdoms, exemplified by the
great mercantile city of Ugarit. The kingdoms of Mycenaean Greece had already
suffered a series of destructions in the 13th century, and the drawn-out end of the
Mycenaean civilisation is characterised by the collapse of the centralised economy,
radical changes in settlement patterns, including migration out of Greece, loss of
literacy, and even linguistic changes. Later Greeks heroised this period with the myths
and stories around the fall of Troy. In reality Troy was probably yet another of the the
civilised cities of Asia Minor that fell prey to the military adventurers who thrived in
the chaos of the period.

and a little about the sea people and their ships.

On Helladic Ships and Sea Peoples
Shelley Wachsmann, Texas A & M
Groups of ship-based raiders first appear in the eastern Mediterranean in the 14th
century B.C. when the king of Alashia (Cyprus) complains that the Lukka raid his
land annually (EA 38: 10-12). These periodic raids evolved over several centuries
into massive migrations by land and sea that sounded the death knell for great Bronze
Age cultures and reshaped the Levant forever.
One of the most perplexing questions regarding the great migrations that marked
this period pertains to the origins of the ethnic groups involved. Who were the Sea
Peoples? What were their ethnic origins and from where did they originate? Scholars
noting the remarkable similarities between the material culture of the Mycenaean
Greeks and the Sea Peoples—from their houses, hearths, pottery and cities—have
long proposed a close connection between these cultures.
The ships used by these peoples in their movements appear to have been a key
factor in their maneuverability, whom the Egyptians knew as “Sea Peoples” (BAR III:
§588 n. a, 601; IV: §129: 4, 6, 403). Echoes of this term reverberate in a text from
Ugarit in which the Hittite king describes one group, the Sekels (Tjeker) as “those
who live on their ships” (RS 34.129). It behooves us, then to examine what their
ships might tell us about the identity of these seafaring migrants. To this end, I
discuss four relevant ship representations.

1200BC

originally posted by: Butterfinger

originally posted by: chr0naut

The Phoenicians were most frequently referred to as "the people of the sea" in ancient texts.

True, Ive always heard of their tracks all around North America, and how they showed up on the shores all over the Med. Supposedly the remnants of Atlantis, etc.

Turns out they were mostly from Spain after all

Next!

The phonecians were late comers to the bronze age. They explored and discovered nothing, they followed the paths of the myceaneans, who inturn followed the paths of Minoans, who intern had utilized the knowledge of early agean and other med. based peoples as they expanded out to the atlantic, britain and scandanavia. They only came to prominence after the fall of the myceneans, who came to prominence after the fall of their overlords, the Minoans.
As to that genetic study, one individual in Carthage, was of iberian stock, which shouldnt be surpising as there had been links between iberian, southern and eastern med peoples for at least 2000 years before the founding of the distinctly phonecian culture.