World War Zero brought down mystery civilisation of ‘sea people’

a reply to: Harte

I could assume that means why not profit of of such things? Maybe not the case, could be why not borrow someones computer... well case one, my life is simple such tings as fame and fortune complicate things way more than avg society realizes, I like simplicity... which of course ties into the issue of case two borrowing in my simplicity im pretty much a hermit that keeps to myself meditates constantly, observes a vow of vocal silence unless some required communication is involved or politness when grocery shopping or buying art supplies for a current project... so nothing available to borrow.

I suppose this could be seen also as some excuse but thats simply the fact of the matter... I suppose I could buy a linux version as its more forgiving than windows to intrusion stays up a bit longer, but that also takes time and unfortunately the linux version I had on a 50gig jump drive got wiped for a version of xp for a virtual machine in VM ware but the silly boot log is corrupted... the XP tablet version I have has no wifi drivers. So its one of those when it rains it really pours situations... silly I know. But Itll get sorted... when ive got the energy to bother yet again bringing that stuff from the dead as its seriously an exercise in futility -insert desk flipping meme- dx I honestly find the insisence of so much intrusion rediculous and kinda hilarious at this point cause I can barely get anything done when it goes up to even steal before its down again... seriously not trying to be a pita here, on my honor as a gentleman.

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: Anaana

originally posted by: Byrd
Current thinking is that it wasn't so much an invasion (not that much in the way of war-torn cities) but more an invasion of settlers.

If that is the case, it was an invasion of settlers that completely and somewhat permanently, wiped out the literate peoples of the Aegean and caused a massive economic shift in that region. It may have been a minor blip in Egypt, but for the Cyclades, the archaeological record suggests an abrupt end to that civilisation, followed by a practically mute dark age. That's a little more than mass migration if you ask me.

I probably should have clarified that the scenario applied to Egypt only. I don't know about the other countries.

No worries, I figured as much.

a reply to: Marduk

He doesn't need science to be wrong to prove these people came from the Pacific, he needs grammar to be wrong. They were the Sea People not the Ocean People...

a reply to: whargoul

Im not anti semantic but this is a case of semantics... blanket, duvet, cover, bed spread basically a retangular cloth to cover oneself when sleeping. Change the language and well more words expressing te exact same concept, of course rectangular cloths of various sapes and sizes also have different uses such as table cloth or cleaning cloth.

So please bear such semantical arguments in mind wen a body of water is essentially a body or water and yet when it becomes sea or ocean or even body of water... yet it is not.

originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness
a reply to: whargoul

Im not anti semantic but this is a case of semantics... blanket, duvet, cover, bed spread basically a retangular cloth to cover oneself when sleeping. Change the language and well more words expressing te exact same concept, of course rectangular cloths of various sapes and sizes also have different uses such as table cloth or cleaning cloth.

So please bear such semantical arguments in mind wen a body of water is essentially a body or water and yet when it becomes sea or ocean or even body of water... yet it is not.

so you have no evidence except for semantics
got it

a reply to: Blackmarketeer

I have immense problems with the theory of a Luwian super-state, not least being the fact that the Luwian language is closely related to Hittite. In addition the Hittite Empire had very good records of their foreign contacts and close neighbours, and the Luwians seem to have made up client kingdoms allied to the Hittites. The issue of who the Sea Peoples were is a complex one and seems to be tied in with the collapse of the Mycenaean Empire, the possible arrival of the Dorians (I have heard one theory that they were already there and simply took over when Mycenae fall), the unravelling of the Western sphere of Hittite interest in Anatolia, the then ongoing slow collapse of the Hittites and a possible ecological disaster in the wider region (this last part is hotly disputed).

originally posted by: Byrd
I'm gonna call "Mostly Nationalist Dreams."

We have an institute (founded in 2014 (so less than 2 years old and possibly a one-person Institute) with the Fantastic Announcement that the Founder's Distant Ancestors destroyed the Hittites and caused the Sea Peoples to run off and try to conquer everyone else.

As the archaeologists studying the area say (in the article itself), the evidence really isn't there. He claims that archaeologists are not allowed to dig where the evidence that will support his statements (which doesn't seem to match the evidence.) He does some hand-waving on the dates and uses convenient artifacts to date things without considering that the items might have been heirlooms (i.e., somebody's mom owned a faience with Queen Twoseret and it was lost 50 years after the reign of the Queen.)

Totally agree. I am also slightly mystified at how (assuming this is correct) that the surrounding territories didn't identify the Sea People's. If they were from the surrounding area, surely Rameses would have identified them on some of his many fine monuments?

originally posted by: Flavian

originally posted by: Byrd
I'm gonna call "Mostly Nationalist Dreams."

We have an institute (founded in 2014 (so less than 2 years old and possibly a one-person Institute) with the Fantastic Announcement that the Founder's Distant Ancestors destroyed the Hittites and caused the Sea Peoples to run off and try to conquer everyone else.

As the archaeologists studying the area say (in the article itself), the evidence really isn't there. He claims that archaeologists are not allowed to dig where the evidence that will support his statements (which doesn't seem to match the evidence.) He does some hand-waving on the dates and uses convenient artifacts to date things without considering that the items might have been heirlooms (i.e., somebody's mom owned a faience with Queen Twoseret and it was lost 50 years after the reign of the Queen.)

Totally agree. I am also slightly mystified at how (assuming this is correct) that the surrounding territories didn't identify the Sea People's. If they were from the surrounding area, surely Rameses would have identified them on some of his many fine monuments?

They are named, but the names given are Egyptian and we have little context for them. They might be derivations of their original names, but we just don't know. A lot of very tenuous theories have been cooked up on this issue.

originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness
a reply to: Marduk

[SNIP]

[SNIP]

I did check out your claims, they are nonsense. Based on the flimsiest of evidence which isn't credible. You are powered by belief and have gone out to find evidence that you have cherry picked and which to you is evidence. As such, this is more about religion than facts.
and I feel I should point out here, that if there's one thing I'm good at, its evaluating evidence and you don't have any. you mistook a helmet for a Mohawk, pretty much that's your proof all over....

originally posted by: Flavian
Totally agree. I am also slightly mystified at how (assuming this is correct) that the surrounding territories didn't identify the Sea People's. If they were from the surrounding area, surely Rameses would have identified them on some of his many fine monuments?

You have raised an interesting point... they were neighbors to other states. Why isn't there any documentation specifically blaming them in other civilizations. As far as I can tell, the mentions of them in documents outside Egypt do not name an origin for them. Thanks to the Egyptian names, a couple of "likely contenders" have been identified. We know from the ones who seized power that they have Semitic-type names.

I would find "climate change/drought" that pushed the people off their lands to be more plausible. The pharaohs would have initially welcomed the new workforce, but if they didn't integrate and Become Egyptian they would be seen as a threat to his power.

Like the Libyans and Nubians (the Nubians tended to try and revolt every time there was a new pharaoh or new dynasty, so the first thing the new ruler usually did was hotfoot it down to the Cataracts and swagger (and smite people)... and then leave monuments saying "I came down here and smote you guys and if you don't behave I'll be back."

(disclaimer - I'm most familiar with Egypt. Not with other cultures there.)

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
a reply to: Blackmarketeer

I have immense problems with the theory of a Luwian super-state, not least being the fact that the Luwian language is closely related to Hittite. In addition the Hittite Empire had very good records of their foreign contacts and close neighbours, and the Luwians seem to have made up client kingdoms allied to the Hittites. The issue of who the Sea Peoples were is a complex one and seems to be tied in with the collapse of the Mycenaean Empire, the possible arrival of the Dorians (I have heard one theory that they were already there and simply took over when Mycenae fall), the unravelling of the Western sphere of Hittite interest in Anatolia, the then ongoing slow collapse of the Hittites and a possible ecological disaster in the wider region (this last part is hotly disputed).

You've made some interesting points -- and it matches up with what I've read about the Mycenean Empire and the Dorians. I agree that a Luwian super-state seems quite unlikely.

odd thought then I will let you all get back to sniping at each other...

Why does it have to be some grand civilization? The danes weren't the biggest or the most advanced (except for some areas) yet they were known all across the known world.

Thats all... back to your regularly scheduled I am smarter than you are snipes.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
Why does it have to be some grand civilization?

The scientific consensus (i.e. the evidence based on) is that it was a loose confederation of different mediteranean groups

a reply to: Harte

Just observing works as thats all I was doing so no accusation but actually was researching the topic... as I did the OP before the trolling and vow to troll if I or anyone makes a future post regarding said topic. Yet I should be banned? If thats fair so be it, perhaps Ill be banned just like the sea peoples Ramses II did as seen when they were imprisioned for attacking everyone in that region they could and well later were set free... as seen in the actual research I point to that not only myself has done, but others have in the constant back and forth of the topic from historians, eygptologist and other experts in the field have made and not drawing conculsions but saying hey there were a few pieces I found on the floor while sweeping and well presenting that to the entire community to see if it fits but not argue for any side in an objective manner to help it come together... was the intent.

Thhere is science to methods of course. like my methods of using them or not, but thats not what is actually being debated, and not the actual info I unfortunately cant present as mentioned unfortunately repeatedly why.

So any way thanks for getting defensive for trying to figure out or research the star flag system... as its become entirely moot due to whatever caused it eh?

Looking at the map. There are a total of 3 civilization that had survived that totally destroyed Troy and the rest of the civilizations in that area of the map.

#1 Persia(No longer exist, but lasted longer)
#2 Greeks
#3 Egypt
Make that 4 which could be Rome who had finish the rest of the surviving civilization off.

I wouldn't include Attila or Genghis Khan. They came in late when Rome had full control already.