Denying something causes you to be it?

a reply to: LittleByLittle

Because Paul:s idea of using Jesus name as a magical slate cleaner of karma (dying for our sins) do not work if Jesus is not the highest source of wisdom and authority. And from my point of view Yeshua said that those who use him as a "dying for our sins symbol" and do not do the work are hypocrites (sheep and goats). This is about Paul changing the message to include the irresponsable proven by their own fruits/lack of fruits.

Could it be that you do not understand the message which the messenger is delivering? If Christianity is true then Jesus did die for your sins as Saul/Paul has reported to have said and if Christianity is not true then Saul/Paul is also not true. That is all said with the assumption that both Jesus and Saul/Paul did exist and did say what is reported. Let us assume that the report is true and that in this theology we agree.

Why would Jesus have the need to appear from His celestial existence to this terrestrial existence? The need was to deliver His justified creation out of the terrestrial realm of Sheol and into the celestial realm of His kingdom. Eventually the terrestrial realm will be destroyed and all that is in it will be destroyed. In realizing that, is the reason to bring the deserving portion of His creation out of that destruction and into a new kingdom. This means that only the justified people will be forgiven and enjoy the new kingdom.

So the problem that most have is just how do we get justified in order to become a citizen of this new kingdom? It is believed that we obtain this salvation by being forgiven and repenting of our sins. So? What has that to do with Jesus dying? Jesus had to establish a new covenant by blood. All covenants of the Creator are blood covenants and the last covenant given to His creation was that of Moses. None of the previous covenants of the Creator entitled His creation citizenship in His new kingdom. Up to this point all humans were contained in the terrestrial Sheol. As the Blood of Jesus was spilled so then the new covenant was established and the creation was then allowed salvation from destruction with eternal life in the kingdom of the Christ Jesus.

When you put all of this in perspective it becomes a message that Saul/Paul delivered in that Jesus died for your sins. If a person repents and asks for forgiveness in this faith (John 3:16) then they can become a citizen of the New Jerusalem. The messenger, Saul/Paul is only that. He was a messenger to those who had never heard this before. He did not teach so that all could understand but only those who wanted to understand could understand.

a reply to: TerryDon79

Terry can you quote the verses where Jesus "flat out" denies being God?

Thanks, I wanted to look at the verses in question.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

What I'm about to post is what some Christians use to prove Jesus is God. As you'll see for yourself, he even denies it a few times.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

Joh 14:24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work.

Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Lu 22:42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."

Joh 5:30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.

Mr 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

Joh 7:16 So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me;

Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Mr 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

8:50 "And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.

a reply to: TerryDon79Not one of those verse is a denial.

I will list verses when I get home I am on the road and not using my own computer.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

You're saying that none of them are saying he isn't God, but someone else is? I think it's pretty obvious.

Also, isn't Jesus the SON of God? How can the son of God be God?

a reply to: TerryDon79

Okay you can quote all these verses but your interpretation of them completely ignores other parts of the BIble. The trinity makes the Bible come together in a way your interpretation does not.



None of these are verses Christians use....these are verses unbelievers use to back up the claim that Jesus denied being God. Though he never denies it he merely makes a distinction between him and the father. The relationship between them is described in Philippians 2:

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Jesus was had the very nature of God before he came to earth, and he willingly chose to lower himself below that status to be made like us, so that he could redeem that which Adam had lost via Leviticus 25.


Then we take this idea and go to John 1 were John reiterates the same point:

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

"14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."


The way Christians view the nature of God is one entity three minds coexisting in a perfect love and harmony for eternity. The best analogy for our inability to comprehend existing in such as state in my opinion is an egg. One egg has three parts, a shell, a white, and a yolk but they are one egg. In the same way God's nature is triune. That which makes God is the person we call the Father, the person we call the Son, and the person we call the Holy Spirit. Without any of these you do not have the God of the Bible.

So the majority of theses verses you have quoted are said as such because of the scenario in Philippians 2 the person of Jesus willingly lowers himself below the others to save mankind.

Right after the section of the verse I quoted in Philippians we hear what the Father does for him afterward:

"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

a reply to: 1984hasarrived

Yes you are lol.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Actually Chester this one here:


Mr 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

Is definitely a flat out denial that Jesus ever thought he was God.

a reply to: Joecanada11

Not its not lol. First read my post Terry about Philippians 2.

Now the verse in question.

"17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

Now this guy is asking him how to receive eternal life and he wants to know what good works he can do to inherit eternal life.

"8 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone."

This is not a denial of being God as Jesus never denies being Good nor does he deny being God, but rather an inquisitive question asked by Jesus to get this man to think about the position he is in with Sin and who Jesus is. Its almost as if Jesus is saying if I am Good then I am God. Now notice how blinded this man is to his position with sin. Jesus tells him to keep the commandments and the guy claims to have kept them all. By the standard of Jesus that is pretty much impossible as we are supposed to be pure in thought and action. Jesus loving him and wanting to save him tells him the one thing he is lacking is following after him . “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” Christ asked him there to make a choice live in the world or live with me. He chose the world.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Sure make the verse fit whatever you want to believe. That's your perogative. If Jesus wasn't denying his divinity he wouldn't have made that statement.

a reply to: Joecanada11

It's a more coherent view of Scripture.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

That's your interpretation of those words.

Being divine, God-like, having the nature of God and everything else is not the same as being God.

Jesus NEVER says he is God. Show me one instance of Jesus saying "I am God".

a reply to: TerryDon79Preincarnate Jesus is known as the Word

John 1:1, 2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Philippians 2:6,7 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant (see John 1:14), and was made in the likeness of men:

He not only was one with God in mind and heart but as a person to whom he thought it not robbery to be equal to God. The Scriptures Claim Jesus is the Word who became flesh and was one God with the Father and the Holy Ghost.

Jesus did not need to say he was God as the scriptures tell us he is God.

No, the scripture you quote it is not a flat out denial it is a statement of fact that no man is good. Jesus was seen by this man as being nothing but a master as one would look on another man, and there is no good man. But God is good and Jesus is the word who is God, and he is good. Jesus knew he was not looking on him as God but as a man or he would have called him Lord instead of master.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: TerryDon79Preincarnate Jesus is known as the Word

John 1:1, 2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Philippians 2:6,7 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant (see John 1:14), and was made in the likeness of men:

He not only was one with God in mind and heart but as a person to whom he thought it not robbery to be equal to God. The Scriptures Claim Jesus is the Word who became flesh and was one God with the Father and the Holy Ghost.

Jesus did not need to say he was God as the scriptures tell us he is God.

The scriptures do not say he was god.

Being equal to God also does not mean he was god.

Can you not see that all you quoted doesn't say he was god?

ETA: Show me one instance where Jesus says "I am God".

I'm not a lier and i believe what you say!

2nd

a reply to: TerryDon79
Denial is the word for you.

The word was God and the word is equal to God and the father, the word and the Holy Ghost are one God.

anything but believe the truth

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I'm sorry, what?

So Jesus, God, the word, the Holy Ghost are all God?

Can you back that up with anything? Like Jesus saying "I am God"?

a reply to: TerryDon79

Did you not understand what the Jews said?

There is a reason he did not say openly that he was God.

It is ok, I know you don't believe he is God. But the scriptures tell us he is God.

Look to the teachings of the Apostle to the Gentiles. He is not an additional apostle to the circumcision but was called to go to the gentiles and to all after Israel's complete rejection of God.

The Jews rejected the Father in the Old Testament, they rejected Jesus/the Word that became flesh in the Four Gospels (where you are quoting) and they rejected the Holy Ghost when they rejected Stephen's testimony and stoned him. They also stoned Paul for teaching Jesus not only as the Jews Messiah but as the God of all, who came in the flesh and died for everyone's sins.

we either have to take all of the scriptures into account about Jesus or we have to take none of it. either way Jesus is still God.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Yet there is no evidence in the bible (sounds kind of ironic me writing that lol) saying that Jesus is God.

The closest you can get is Jesus was possessed by gods spirit to do gods work. That still doesn't make Jesus God.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Also those were Paul's doctrines which conflict in a big way with what Jesus taught. I can't believe people buy the Paul's vision especially when he his teaching are completely the opposite of Jesus.