Is a naturally occuring universe/life the biggest conspiracy ever?

a reply to: Woodcarver

This is why I wanted to start with the assumption that the fables are true.

None of us are above being mislead. Whilst I could do some experiments on my own, I don't have the resources or the knowledge to do them properly. The creationist claims that people who oppose them rely on faith is actually true to a degree.

However if we are being mislead it is happening on a massive scale and there has to be some proof of the collusion that would be required.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

Your name, does your family line hail from the middle east? If so, how was your atheism treated throughout your life?

Nah, I'm Australian and whilst the vast majority here claim to be christian it's more the Santa and Easter Bunny variety.
The fire and brimstone lot are increasing however and I'm looking for ways to discuss the issues that don't rely on comparing evidence as that is never fruitful.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

It's simple
Because it's a reasonable assumption that mankind evolved from nothing as opposed to a creator


Accepting a God means accepting responsibility
Accepting that humanity is accountable
Better to assume nthing than responsibility

and evolution irrespective, is kinda logical compared to God
God is not logical

I know that i have corrected you on the "everything came from nothing" strawman. So why do you insist on using this in every thread. The BBT does not claim that everything came from nothing. Only religious apologists claim this. How many times must you be told?

Also, how does giving the wheel to jesus equal accepting responsibility? God/jesus is the scapegoat for all of humanities sins according to the bible, right? Jesus takes your burden, so to speak. He takes your punishment for you. This in not putting accountability in the hands of humans. This is blaming god for your faults and letting some one else take your punishment.

At least you admit that god makes no sense and has no explanatory power. But even that statement just circumvents your responsibility to provide proof of your claims.

Are you a scientologist?
Is BBT a big bad tra nsexual?

Have you corrected me or just made an assumption of correction
If I was wrong and as you assume life came from something what was it again
Be specific I can't remember everyone tells me they have told me something
Latter I find it was all a figment of their immagination
Are you imagining
God does make sense
I don't make sense
You fail on that premise that I don't fail
Not God
God doesn't fail
I do

Now I don't give the wheel to Christ
I give Him my sin
Think

originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar
a reply to: Woodcarver

This is why I wanted to start with the assumption that the fables are true.

None of us are above being mislead. Whilst I could do some experiments on my own, I don't have the resources or the knowledge to do them properly. The creationist claims that people who oppose them rely on faith is actually true to a degree.

However if we are being mislead it is happening on a massive scale and there has to be some proof of the collusion that would be required.

I don't agree that accepting claims made by trustworthy institues is a question of faith. We have good reason to accept some claims. Plus, you can do the experiments yourself. Even if you choose not to. You could. No faith needed when so many others are happy to validate the findings. The mere complexity of the engine of scientific validation makes it near impossible to hide false claims for very long. There is always some institute who will come along and test.

If we start by assuming that the concept of evolution is correct and that the world was created Over millions of years....

"even the Vatican has supported evolution. "

Changed your first line a tiny bit. It made more sense to me.

The churches of the world have too many contradictions- I don't study religion at all, there's so many different religions out there, I don't understand how anyone can be so sure that their version is the "right" one.
Religion has been a great control tool, and a great dividing tool as well. A lot of wealth made by some of the religious as well, (like the Vatican)

To many people, that's the biggest conspiracy ever

A list:
www.humanreligions.info...

And then the above listed religions get broken down even further, into various sectors.....
😇


"I'm curious how this lie could be maintained and the level of corruption that would be needed. "

⬆️ That statement could be applied easily to the amount of corruption that we already know the various churches have

Sorry, I can't assume the bible is totally true, it reads like a badly translated history book, with info missing or purposely left out.

originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

Your name, does your family line hail from the middle east? If so, how was your atheism treated throughout your life?

Nah, I'm Australian and whilst the vast majority here claim to be christian it's more the Santa and Easter Bunny variety.
The fire and brimstone lot are increasing however and I'm looking for ways to discuss the issues that don't rely on comparing evidence as that is never fruitful.

observations and evidence are the only paths to truth. Word and logic problems fall apart with a lack of supporting evidence.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

It's simple
Because it's a reasonable assumption that mankind evolved from nothing as opposed to a creator


Accepting a God means accepting responsibility
Accepting that humanity is accountable
Better to assume nthing than responsibility

and evolution irrespective, is kinda logical compared to God
God is not logical

I know that i have corrected you on the "everything came from nothing" strawman. So why do you insist on using this in every thread. The BBT does not claim that everything came from nothing. Only religious apologists claim this. How many times must you be told?

Also, how does giving the wheel to jesus equal accepting responsibility? God/jesus is the scapegoat for all of humanities sins according to the bible, right? Jesus takes your burden, so to speak. He takes your punishment for you. This in not putting accountability in the hands of humans. This is blaming god for your faults and letting some one else take your punishment.

At least you admit that god makes no sense and has no explanatory power. But even that statement just circumvents your responsibility to provide proof of your claims.

Are you a scientologist?
Is BBT a big bad tra nsexual?

Have you corrected me or just made an assumption of correction
If I was wrong and as you assume life came from something what was it again
Be specific I can't remember everyone tells me they have told me something
Latter I find it was all a figment of their immagination
Are you imagining
God does make sense
I don't make sense
You fail on that premise that I don't fail
Not God
God doesn't fail
I do

Now I don't give the wheel to Christ
I give Him my sin
Think

Why can't you handle your own sin? You know, step up and accept the responsibility instead of handing it off and shirking your responsibility. Wouldn't that actually make you accountable?

Why would god need to make this loophole? Why wouldn't he just make you in a way that pleases him?

Ah the ever lovely ID vs EVO mess, I have gotten to the point of ID Via EVO.

Here bear with this for just a minute,

The Evolution Plan - AkA the Mess Just happened line

1. Nothing
2. Big Bang
3. Loose Gas and Debris create suns.
4. Loose Junk and rocks Form Planets
5. Motion of Planets make Gravity
6. Gravity Pulls down Atmosphere
7. Atmosphere falls on rock forming oceans
8. Conditions just right for Fauna to grow
9. Life begins in Water
10. Crawls up on land
11. Adapts to land
12. Changes over and over to make all the Kingdoms and Phyla
13. Chimps figure out how to bang rocks
14. Wars happen over and over as One type of Chimp get smarter
15. Smart Chimp changes into Man and Woman.
16. Man discovers Digital watches.
17. Man does not invite distant cousin to dinner table.

That about sums up the EVO Line.

But the EVO line has one flaw at least to my Perspective, if it was random chance why are not Humans more Diverse eh Dog Peoples, Cat peoples, Lizard folk, why are there not evolved Platypuses? (you know God have must have been Smoking some good Weed to come up with that one.)

Ok the Hated 7 Day line

1. Nothing
2. Let there be light and it was Good.
3. Make the Earth and it was Good.
4. Divide the Day and the Night and it Was Good.
5. Make the Oceans, then Raise the land out of them and it was Good.
6. Make the Plants (oh wait I can smoke that one and it was Really Good.)
7. Make the fishies yep that was good.
8. Make the Creepy Crawlies because it is Easy Yepp that is Good.
9. Make the puppies and the Lions and all the other stuff, hey lets make a beaver that looks like it mated with a Duck and give it Poison of a Lizard... Milk and Eggs two things that naturally do not fit together.... Yeah hey this plant is really good better slow down on that or someone may make a law against it...
10. World is almost perfect no wait I cant watch it all the time lets make something to watch it for me, Man this weed is getting to my head oh wait what was I doing oh yeah Man...
11. Well dang all he is doing is sitting there wanking off and looking funny at the Sheep we need something to keep his attention I know lets Try making another one from scratch... Well dang that did not work she divorced him and took the Kids... Ok lets put the Man to Sleep take a piece of him Clone him but flip this Genetic Switch... Woah Man this Buzz has lasted a long time, I think I will call this Better Looking thing Woman.
12. Dang I am tired now I think I will take a Nap...

That Basically is the Gist of the 7 days if regular weed slows down time then God level Weed would make a day feel like a couple hundred thousand years or is it make a couple hundred thousand years feel only as if it was one day.... Oh man here is a weed thought day did not exist until the third day, so how long were those first two days, and are my days how long it takes everything in this galaxy to go around the center one time or just this one little planet around its sun....

Now comes along Man who has no idea how he got here, realizes the whole how did I and all these people get here is finally a question that is being asked, and asked too much.

Man sits there and figures out the Order in which things May have happened. (does not know about the Weed)
Figures if he was All powerful how long would it take him to do it guesses about 7 days...

Man writes it all down and then tells other men his Hypothesis on how it all could have happened... Other men not wanting to think that hard Accept it and it becomes cannon. But the order when stripping god and his hangover out of it looks pretty much close to the order of Evolution...

Which is why I tend to Look at the Old testament as more a from those around at the time History book and less like a wondrous thing we all must follow... It has ideas on how things formed not far off of scientific hypothesis, a care and feeding guide for people Don't eat Cloven Hooved animals and Creepy Crawly things you get sick. Combined with a history of a group of people and explaining why they always find them selves slave to the man where ever they are...

The Romans see the at that time Jewish people getting controlled quite well by their faith, adopt their faith add a whole extra book to it to control not just the Jews but everyone, not realizing the first book was a History book... wham you get the New Testament which is a pure society control not a history.

In long to short, what I am really saying is None of US were there to see it happen, so we can only guess is one guess more right then the other, WHO FREAKING CARES WE CAN NOT CHANGE IT, we are here now that is all that matters, what are we going to do from this point Forward...

something to Chew on while enjoying a

CoBaZ

Just throwing this out there to consider .There seems to be 2 trains of thought .Both need to taught and so there are trained minds to look at and propagate the either of the choices . 1's and 0's eh !

a reply to: CoBaZ

Dude. I literally just corrected another poster for using the BBT strawman that "everything comes from nothing. "

One must understand the difference between evolution theory and the big bang theory before one can argue for or against them.

#ing read a book.

a reply to: Woodcarver

I asked if you were a scientologist
It still stands as a question

Me
I am nothinhe made my ancestors
They failed
So will I
I surrendered because I know o fail

Watch out for thetons

Oh yes I am accountable
That's Why I try

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: CoBaZ

Dude. I literally just corrected another poster for using the BBT strawman that "everything comes from nothing. "

One must understand the difference between evolution theory and the big bang theory before one can argue for or against them.

#ing read a book.

Just because I did not Start with the Stuff before the big Bang aka the decaying Universe that Collapsed upon itself and Formed a Super Massive Explosion aka the theory that everything blows up from a super dense black hole that allows existence to go out so far before it sucks everything back in until it gets too dense and blows up again, is no reason to think I did not read a good many books on the subject. But then Most Creation theories do not go into what was before the Gib Gnab.

The most important part of my whole wall of text there was the last bit, since obviously Satire is Above Understanding.

There's something about this topic which makes people see red and completely unwilling to look at it from any angle other than their own. This isn't about proving evolution, if it was there are plenty of threads covering this and this one would be just as successful.

I'm just trying to point out that for creationism to be true there needs to be a conspiracy on the largest scale to hide this fact.

And what better place to expose or debunk this conspiracy than ATS.

a reply to: Klassified

Thanks Klassified. Seems you are the only one who understood my initial post from the start and answered the question.

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

The hard part about debunking a conspiracy of evolution/science, and to assume the bible correct, one would have to prove God.

Those people that have had otherworldly experiences of various sorts, know that there's something more than what our five main senses can detect, but it doesn't feel like that otherworldly stuff has anything to do with the bible, especially if the book is incomplete or translated poorly.

Maybe there's a soul of the universe that has absolutely nothing to do with the bible, or any recognized religion.
It's likely that everyone is wrong about everything...

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

Thanks Klassified. Seems you are the only one who understood my initial post from the start and answered the question.

Lol. And I deleted it thinking maybe I was the one who misunderstood you. C'est la vie.

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

We must be talking about a massive worldwide conspiracy.

The conspiracy is religious dogma written before they even had any idea about planets, stars, galaxies, the infinite Universe was unknown to them. You got this idea the world was made in 6 days from these guys?

How do you explain the long underseas chain of volcano islands that end up in the Hawaiian Islands?

It takes forever to build one island. Look at an undersea map…

image of pacific ocean floor

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

Thanks Klassified. Seems you are the only one who understood my initial post from the start and answered the question.

Lol. And I deleted it thinking maybe I was the one who misunderstood you. C'est la vie.

Haha oh well. Someone else is bound to actually read it soon enough I guess.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

How do you explain the long underseas chain of volcano islands that end up in the Hawaiian Islands?

To be honest I've never given it any thought, although how I explain them is irrelevant to the thread.

But to answer the question I'll say it has something to do with the crust shifting over billions of years creating weak points where the magma underneath comes through. Although I'm sure that's either completely wrong or ignorantly oversimplified.

The way I see it, if evolution was a conspiracy there would have surely been some whistle blowers by now, instead of different scientists from different fields all confirming similar data. Surely, somebody out there has integrity. A conspiracy of that type would have to be massive... unrealistically massive. This is exemplified by the fact that near 5,000 people graduate with bachelor degrees in physical science and technologies per year in the US alone, and just over half of scientists that work in the field are religious.

The main thing I don't understand is: What do scientists and the government possibly have to gain by putting so much time and resources into faking evidence? Historically, religion has clearly been shown to be the best way to control a population. The only reason I could see them veering away from that, would be if it's becoming obviously true, so much so that they cannot hide it anymore with modern technology. It's the only logical explanation at this point. People can blindly believe their holy books as literal truth, but it doesn't get us real tangible answers.

I just don't see how a conspiracy so large could be maintained for so long with the technology we have, and also how it could possibly benefit the powers that be. The big issue is that the technology created by scientific research is often produced using the knowledge gained from evolutionary science and biology. If it were false, the tech wouldn't work so reliably.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Accepting a God means accepting responsibility
Accepting that humanity is accountable
Better to assume nthing than responsibility

This is precisely why the evolution "conspiracy" makes no sense. There is nothing to gain by lying to the population to make them feel less significant in the universe. It makes no sense. I'm not saying you need god or religion to be a moral person, but controlling a population is much easier without major conflicting ideas like science and religion(non literalists) today.