TA-THREATS: Israel warns Egypt, Planes will be shot

^^^ Get a hold of it... You act like the pilots are the terrorists... When the terrorists will be sitting in coach and can’t get through cockpit doors and whatnot.
That isn’t to say that this is going on outside of the U.S. but that’s all I care about.

Originally posted by ChrisRT
^^^ Get a hold of it... You act like the pilots are the terrorists... When the terrorists will be sitting in coach and can’t get through cockpit doors and whatnot.
That isn’t to say that this is going on outside of the U.S. but that’s all I care about.

But yet when one of these planes comes from overseas and the practices the US has in place is not in place overseas, will you be worried?

Originally posted by AceOfBase
Did someone just mention Israel and violations of airspace?

Israel mock raids over south Lebanon (Dec 29 2004)
Beirut, Lebanon, Dec. 29 (UPI) -- Israeli warplanes staged several mock raids over south Lebanon Wednesday, breaking the sound barrier and causing panic, security sources said.

Washington Times October 18, 2004
Beirut, Lebanon, Oct. 18 (UPI) -- Six Israeli warplanes violated Lebanese air space Monday and broke the sound barrier over south Lebanon, raising tension in the volatile region.

scoop.co.nz September 24 2004
UN Envoy Voices Concern Over Israeli Violations Of Lebanese Airspace
After a 24-hour period marked by nine Israeli violations of Lebanese airspace, a senior United Nations envoy to the region today called for an end to the overflights.

Spacewar Nov 22, 2003
sraeli warplanes flew over Lebanon Saturday as the country celebrated 60 years of independence, just three days after renewed UN warnings that doing so could escalate regional tension, officials said.

SMH.com.au April 29 2003

Israeli warplanes flew over southern Lebanon yesterday, drawing fire from Hizbollah guerillas, Lebanese security officials said.

The officials said two Israeli warplanes flew over the eastern, central and western sectors of south Lebanon, including the town of Nabatiyeh and the coastal city of Sidon.

Southern Lebannon is occupied by the Syrian military and their para-military Hizbullah forces. There are daily mortar and missile attacks on Northern Israel from southern Lebannon. This is a totally different situation. Israel is not firing rockets on Egypt from Gaza everyday. Syria is attacking Israel via Hizbullah everyday from Lebannon. Therefore, Lebannon is technically a war zone, at least the south, Eliat is not, or should not be.

When Syria decides to get out of Lebannon and when Hizbullah decides to disarm and disband and turn over defense of Lebannon to a legitimate, non-Syrian ruled government, then I'm sure Israel will be more than happy to stop making defensive sorties into Lebanese airspace. So long as Syria continues its luke warm war against Israel, you can expect this sort of thing. You can't fire explosive projectiles at civilians and expect a country to not do anything.

So Egypt and Lebannon are not even remotely comparable.

Look at it this way...

DumDum Donny has to go around Farmer Brown's property every day on his way to and from work.

It's not really too far out of his way to go around - but it would be quicker to "cut through".

There is a sign on Farmer Brown's fence that says...

Trespassers will be shot!

If DumDum Donny "often ... deviates from the route and enters Farmer Brown's property" and then gets shot one day, is anyone going to feel sorry for DumDum Donny?

GO AROUND!

Don't get me wrong the last thing I want to see is innocent passengers getting killed, but if the Egytian aircraft / authorities won't even respond to hails then how are the Israelis to know "what" is on board these aircraft?

Oh that's right "scramble f-15 's during any overflight by any country that may be hostile to them" - now that is funny!

You'd need more F-15s than there are Yellow Cabs in NYC to do that!

Originally posted by Djarums
Interesting how some will scream that Israel has no right to shoot down planes invading their airspace but when Iran says they'll do the same thing those very same people cheer for them and demand their right to sovereignty from the evil Americans and Israelis.

Its a bit different, a country shooting at Fighter planes, and a illegal terrorist nation shooting down commercial airliners id say?

and FYI Iran has "sovereignty" as you put it.

[edit on 11-1-2005 by P Amaru]

Originally posted by P Amaru
Its a bit different, a country shooting at Fighter planes, and a illegal terrorist nation shooting down commercial airliners id say?

No, you have it backwards - Israel was the one threatening to shoot down commercial airliners that blatantly violate its airspace.

i dont have it backwards, you misread my post... Sorry if it wasnt clearer...

Isreal is the largest terrorist organization in the world, it has no right to exist, this kind of thing doesnt suprise me one bit.

Originally posted by P Amaru
i dont have it backwards, you misread my post... Sorry if it wasnt clearer...

Isreal is the largest terrorist organization in the world, it has no right to exist, this kind of thing doesnt suprise me one bit.

Hmm, let's see. The government of Iran kills many more people, and more Muslims, than Israel does. Muslims in Israeli-adminstered areas are astonishingly more free than Muslims in Iran (www.freedomhouse.org...). Of course, Muslims in Palestinian Authority administered areas have comparable freedoms. Was that why you were confused? ... Civilian deaths attributed to Israel were predominantly collateral damage in anti-terrorism operations that were well-reported in the media, with remaining cases the acts of individuals who received punishment. For the Iranian government and state-sponsored paramilitaries, killing civilians is a hobby. The largest incident of civilian deaths blamed on Israel was actually carried out by Arabs without any Israelis in the proximity to interfere. From Libya to Jordan, Palestinians have been ground under the boot of autocratic Arab regimes. In Israel Palestinians are denied similar treatment, and literally have to launch murderous assaults on civilian residences and public areas to receive the bullets which flow so freely in the nations of their Muslim brothers.

Yeah, like I said, you had it backwards.

Originally posted by P Amaru
Isreal is the largest terrorist organization in the world, it has no right to exist

How about adding that it is your opinion (many even go so far as to say in their HUMBLE opinion,) or at least not stating it as FACT when it is not.

I understand that emotions run high on this subject, but no reason to make yourself sound like an ass because you got your feelings hurt.


On subject, I don't see what all the fuss is about is. Israel is a sovereign nation, just like Iran (as someone else brought up) and both have a right to tell other countries to piss off and stay out of their airspace. If those flying out of or into Egypt don't want to die, then they need to demand that Egypt put a stop to this and not fly with these airlines until that happens. No one is forcing them on these planes, and no one is forcing Egyptian airlines to violate a sovereign nation's airspace. Israel can not be held accountable for what happens to those that trespass on its soil or in its airspace, and neither can Iran.

If I was Israel and my next door neighbor was Egypt, my next door neighbor would be dead, and his TV/jewelry would probably be missing too.

Given the basic rules of interception of suspicious aircraft and the general laws of combat relating to air to air warfare I find it highly unlikely that an accidental shoot down incident would occur with an airforce as well equipped and trained as that of Israel. The standard procedure here as far as I know is to intercept and contact such aircraft, not to blaze away willy nilly. The IAF is a highly professional force and whilst mistakes are not impossible they seem highly unlikely. I believe that the airliner would have to behave in a suspicious manner to enable an authorise its destruction. By suspicious i mean failure to respond to the signals of the intercepting fighters or suddern changes of heading and altitude toward civil or military buildup ie cities, industrial infrastructure or defense instalations.
There is a documented case of Korean fighters destroying an airliner (Seoul Airways Flight KE007 I think) and the contributing factors here are highly complicated due to the abundance of US surveillance hardware in the vicinity at the time. The point that I am trying to make here is that terminal payoffs and the like are largely irrelevant since the decision to open fire upon any aircraft comes ultimately from the fighter controllers who recieve the information to make this decision from the current SOP and the judgements of the on site Fighter commander, Perhaps someone could buy these people out but it would be a highly costly and expensive operation.

P Amaru, you would do well to identify your "opinion" as the clearly biased statement that it is.

Even if you claim that the only borders Israel is "legally" entitled to are the indefensible 1948 borders, the UN themselves ratified that.

Your statement of them being an illegal nation with no right to exist is baseless, factually incorrect, stupid, ignorant and hateful. Did I mention it was wrong too as per the United Nations who voted that it legally did exist?

Someone needs a history book with a certain UN resolution in it. I'll mail you one if you wish. It'll do better for you than whatever incompetent source your information is coming from.

Here's a little note to all:

There are lots of threads opened up daily on ATS having to do with Israel, its politics, its leadership, its relationship with other countries etc. If you are going to ruin these intelligent discussions by presenting your "opinions" in EVERY SINGLE GOD DAMN THREAD about their "right to exist" as if you are worth anything in such matters, all you are doing is killing conversation.

We know. The whole damn membership knows. Some of you don't like Israel. Some of you don't think they should exist. Some of you wish they'd all die or move off the planet. We've established this time and time again.

It is inexcusable that a small group of members should derail EVERY discussion we have on the subject of Israel with the same arguments each time. Some of us wish to converse intelligently about these topics. You have no right to CONSTANTLY try to ruin those conversations for the rest of us who find these topics interesting. Keep it on topic, or for god's sake (and I speak for all members who desire intelligent diverse conversation) SHUT THE HELL UP.

STOP RUINING OUR THREADS

Originally posted by Djarums
There are lots of threads opened up daily on ATS having to do with Israel, its politics, its leadership, its relationship with other countries etc. If you are going to ruin these intelligent discussions by presenting your "opinions" in EVERY SINGLE GOD DAMN THREAD about their "right to exist" as if you are worth anything in such matters, all you are doing is killing conversation.

We know. The whole damn membership knows. Some of you don't like Israel. Some of you don't think they should exist. Some of you wish they'd all die or move off the planet. We've established this time and time again.

It is inexcusable that a small group of members should derail EVERY discussion we have on the subject of Israel with the same arguments each time. Some of us wish to converse intelligently about these topics. You have no right to CONSTANTLY try to ruin those conversations for the rest of us who find these topics interesting. Keep it on topic, or for god's sake (and I speak for all members who desire intelligent diverse conversation) SHUT THE HELL UP.

STOP RUINING OUR THREADS

If I was a mod., I would give you a warning, but I'm not so I will give you this

You have voted Djarums for the Way Above Top Secret award.

Good job, someone had to say it.

Originally posted by HeirToBokassa

Hmm, let's see. The government of Iran kills many more people, and more Muslims, than Israel does. Muslims in Israeli-adminstered areas are astonishingly more free than Muslims in Iran (www.freedomhouse.org...). Of course, Muslims in Palestinian Authority administered areas have comparable freedoms. Was that why you were confused? ... Civilian deaths attributed to Israel were predominantly collateral damage in anti-terrorism operations that were well-reported in the media, with remaining cases the acts of individuals who received punishment. For the Iranian government and state-sponsored paramilitaries, killing civilians is a hobby. The largest incident of civilian deaths blamed on Israel was actually carried out by Arabs without any Israelis in the proximity to interfere. From Libya to Jordan, Palestinians have been ground under the boot of autocratic Arab regimes. In Israel Palestinians are denied similar treatment, and literally have to launch murderous assaults on civilian residences and public areas to receive the bullets which flow so freely in the nations of their Muslim brothers.

Yeah, like I said, you had it backwards.

Again more blatent lies coming from the Anti-muslim mouth piece

FYI isreal is responsible for more terrorist activity then any other group in the world *excluding its crusading zion run partner US) You talk about killing civilians are "collateral damage". which might be true if the isrealis were not aiming directly at civilians.. With your war of thinking, i could say 9/11 was just collateral damage, when the next strike hits US, i hope they can level a city just like the US has done in Falluja, like isreal has done in the gaaza strip and many other places

when the next strike hits US, i hope they can level a city just like the US has done in Falluja

Wow...

What an absolutely hateful thing to say. You know, I don't very much agree with anything you stand for. I'm sure you've figured that out by now. But I'll tell you one thing that's different. Regardless of who a casualty is, I don't wish it on anyone. War sucks. Even those that argue that the war in Iraq is justified are not "happy" that civilians in Iraq died. Even those who use a "Collateral Damage" argument are not celebrating the deaths of civilians, or hoping for the deaths of civilians.

But you are. You and I do not agree on anything and probably wouldn't get along particularly well, but I would never "hope" that your city, or anyone's city, would be leveled. Do you really feel that way?

Originally posted by Djarums

when the next strike hits US, i hope they can level a city just like the US has done in Falluja

Wow...

What an absolutely hateful thing to say. You know, I don't very much agree with anything you stand for. I'm sure you've figured that out by now. But I'll tell you one thing that's different. Regardless of who a casualty is, I don't wish it on anyone. War sucks. Even those that argue that the war in Iraq is justified are not "happy" that civilians in Iraq died. Even those who use a "Collateral Damage" argument are not celebrating the deaths of civilians, or hoping for the deaths of civilians.

But you are. You and I do not agree on anything and probably wouldn't get along particularly well, but I would never "hope" that your city, or anyone's city, would be leveled. Do you really feel that way?

I feel america should be punished for all the evil its doing yes... And if the only way to stop this evil is using nukes/chem warheads against US then it must be done.... I guess we could call it collateral damage if we use your outlook.
But i dammwell know that id rather see the american aggressers die then the poor iraqi civialians who never did FA in the first place.

As for my opinions on Isreal, there statements speak for themselves, they think its ok to fly fighter jets over other nations, then when a planefull of innocent passegers crosses its border it theatens to shoot them down... Isreal has no value for human life unless those people are zionist terrorists themselves

Originally posted by P Amaru
then when a planefull of innocent passegers crosses its border it theatens to shoot them down... Isreal has no value for human life unless those people are zionist terrorists themselves

Missing the Point Here.....

This has happened over 25 times in the last sixth months, the Israeli government has contacted the Egyptian government over this matter. The Egyptian government is not doing Anything about it. Israel has issued the warning as a last resort. Now why is Egypt Not doing anything about it? Do they not care about there civilians?

Originally posted by JamesBlonde
Given the basic rules of interception of suspicious aircraft and the general laws of combat relating to air to air warfare I find it highly unlikely that an accidental shoot down incident would occur with an airforce as well equipped and trained as that of Israel. The standard procedure here as far as I know is to intercept and contact such aircraft, not to blaze away willy nilly. The IAF is a highly professional force and whilst mistakes are not impossible they seem highly unlikely. ...snip...

Not so. Although this is an older incident it shows that Israel committed an atrocity that by todays standards simply would not be tolerated. A clearly identified vessel in international waters was shot & bombed repeatedly inflicting heavy damages and loss of life. Israel apologized and the U.S. agreed that it was a case of mistaken identity. But this couldn't possibly happen with such an advanced military force right ? Bottom line Israel or any other nation can take whatever action it deems necessary it's how well aquainted they are politically that determines the outcome.

www.ussliberty.org...

brill

Originally posted by brill
Not so. Although this is an older incident it shows that Israel committed an atrocity that by todays standards simply would not be tolerated.

I find that very funny: an "atrocity" where the supposed victims deny that the event was an atrocity and do not demand any reconciliation or punishment. If it is an atrocity then perhaps the most guilty are those among the "victims" who do not see it as such.

To P Amaru: despite all the bile that you are spewing, I don't hear you protesting at all about the following:

In Iran, I lived through thousands of days when political Islam shed blood. Since 1979, a hundred thousand men, women and children have been executed in the name of Allah. I have lived through days when I, along with thousands of men and women throughout the country, looked for the names of our lovers, husbands, wives, friends, daughters, sons, colleagues and students in newspapers which daily announced the names of the executed. Days when the soldiers of Allah attacked bookstores and publishing houses and burned books. Days of armed attacks on universities, killing students all over the country. Weeks and months of bloody attacks on workers' strikes and demonstrations. Years of assassination of opponents inside and outside Iran. Years of suppression and brutal murder of atheists, freethinkers, socialists, trade union leaders and activists, Marxists, Bahais, women who resisted the misery of hijab and the rule of sexual apartheid, and many others who were none of these, who were arrested in the streets and then executed simply because of their innocent non-Islamic appearance. And to the hundred thousand murdered in Iran must be added the millions who have died in Algeria, the Sudan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and elsewhere. A silent holocaust about which the civilised world does nothing.
...
The truth should be spoken. We shouldn't let apologists for Islam play with people's lives any more. We should say clearly and loudly that it is all about Islam. What we have seen is the reality of Islam in power. The fact is that Western liberal and left-wing intellectuals feel guilty about past colonial history and are apologetic to the ‘Third World’. They consider the 'Third World' a given entity, where people are keen to suffer under the rotten rules of Islam, where people are happy to be deprived of the achievements of human civilization in the 21st century. According to them, women desire sexual apartheid, girls love to be segregated from boys, and people hate civil rights and individual freedom. In their view, people are the allies of Islamic movements and Islamic governments. This is indeed a distorted image of the realities. This is an inverted colonialism. In this picture, people who are fighting for civil rights, secularism and against political Islam do not exist. This self-centered mentality in which everything should revolve around the guilt of Western pseudo-intellectuals is appalling. The rights of freedom of expression, equality of men and women, and a secular state apply to people in the 'Third World' too. Isn't it shameful that we have to argue about it?

Contrary to this view, there is a fight going on - and it has been going on for over 20 years - between progressive movements in the Middle East and in the West on the one side, and political Islam on the other. The records of the daily struggle of people and the non-Islamic opposition in Islam-ridden countries, and the news of the daily resistance of the youth and women in Iran, demonstrate the reality of peoples' demands in the 'Third World'. Since 1979, Iranian society has changed dramatically and deeply. The movement for secularism and atheism, for modern ideas and culture, for individual freedom, for women's liberation and civil liberties has been widespread and deep. Disgust for religion and the backward culture of those in power is immense.

www.middleastwomen.org...

"We point out that 120 newspapers have been banned since 2001, more than 50 journalists have been detained and 11 are still in detention, making Iran the biggest prison for journalists in the Middle East," the letter said.

www.eubusiness.com...

All a Zionist conspiracy to defame the righteous Islamic paradises, no doubt. Hypocrisy doesn't begin to describe what we are reading in this thread.

Originally posted by HeirToBokassa

Originally posted by brill
Not so. Although this is an older incident it shows that Israel committed an atrocity that by todays standards simply would not be tolerated.

I find that very funny: an "atrocity" where the supposed victims deny that the event was an atrocity and do not demand any reconciliation or punishment. If it is an atrocity then perhaps the most guilty are those among the "victims" who do not see it as such.

You find it amusing that 34 people were slaughtered and that about 170 others were wounded for no good reason ? You obviously missed my point about the rest. When two countries are so close do you really believe that the victims in this incident would receive a fair shake ? There was some compensation (ballpark of 3million), but once the legal fees are paid out the remainder would be an insult.

brill

Originally posted by HeirToBokassa


To P Amaru: despite all the bile that you are spewing, I don't hear you protesting at all about the following:
www.eubusiness.com...
blah blah [enter propaganda here]
A

Its easy enough to get poor civilians to lie for money... There was a woman in the US who got famous for it (saying she was tortured in one of iraqs camps, when it didngt happen to her) but i forget her name... These stories are written by the us, to help sell there lies....
And yes Isreal is the great evil nation, when they stop killing innocent civilians and stealing there land maybe i will consider not using such words are satan and isreal in the same sentance.