Why some people believe in God and in the bible and others do not.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

I do not like labels...... I believe there are children of God and those that are not.

Hold on... Aren't we all by definition children of God? Or does this only apply to the nomads of Israel?

Does God love his son Jesus more than you?

He's his kid and he was also the perfect human specimen, yeah more than likely he does.

Does God love the apostle Peter more than you?

Yeah he was a saint and founded the early christian churches.

Does God love those who follow his laws more than those who refuse and reject him?

Yup because you don't get his free gift of immortality if your defiant...

Does God love the seed of Eve more than the seed of the serpent?

You know I'm actually not sure about this one. Don't the sins of the parents apply to the children as well?

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: DeathSlayer
There is also the question of willingness to understand, because nothing can get past unwillingness.
Here is an extract from my own account (in the "How an atheist became a Christian" thread).

A more crucial turning point was the realisation that I had not been forced into unbelief by the lack of evidence for Christianity. If there was a lack of evidence in either direction, that just left things evenly balanced.
The real deciding factor had been personal preference; unbelief was a much more comfortable, less demanding, option, and that was my reason for choosing it.
Once again, this was the moment of honesty.
If my unbelief was a personal preference, it took away the defence that I “could not help” not believing.
If I was held accountable for making the wrong choice, there wasn’t any answer I could give.

Brother, I totally agree!

I am against forcing anyone to believe in something. They have to make that decision themself.

God is waiting for all of us to come to him. It is a personal decision and easy to do.

Couldn't be more wrong in my instance.

I never once in my life chose to believe...

It is inherent in my psyche to believe...


I never made a decision...
I never weighed up the options...

My life dictated to me that there is no other option.



God will see into the hearts of men, and if it was convenience or Fear, rather than Faith and Love, they shall be scorned.

I have more Faith in the non believers Judgement than I do the convenience believers.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

The guy who wrote that article starts by saying that he found he believed biblical prophecy, and that led to him believing the bible. I wonder if he actually took the time to investigate those "prophecies". It sounds as though he interpreted the prophecies subectively. From a fairly objective perspective, I can point out a dozen or so failed prophesies, at least one "prophecy" that was written after the event happened, maybe 5 or 6 "prophecies" that are not really intended to be taken as prophecies but are often cited by adherents, and a couple that are quite vague in their wording and very much open to interpretation.

The second post simply goes on to use bible passages to explain and describe how atheists think and how it's God's will for them to not be enlightened. This is rather beside the point, it is a subjective religious interpretation that removes all personal responsibility for the decision and devalues the opinion to a level of ignorance unjustly. Inversely it's like saying the that people who take the bible literally and over scientific method are incapable of being educated.

Atheists haven't "found God", not because God has chosen to remain hidden to them, but because everywhere He is supposed to be they find Him absent, they have found sufficent answers to explain their world and have no need of HIm, they see no tangable beneficial gain to holding such a faith, and they often realise that the Bible is a product of man and his creativity, poetry, and curiosity. The usually find the world to be beautiful, wondrous, awe inspiring, complex, fascinating and exciting without the need or desire to rely on one collection of documents from history to explain or justify it.

What kind of God would pick and choose who can and can't understand HIs word anyway? That's pretty manipulative and prejudicial if you ask me. Why not make your word perfectly clear and universally acceptable? Why impose restrictions on some but not others and allow so much confusion, war, segregation and disharmony? To what end?

originally posted by: Slanter
a reply to: DeathSlayer

Well I agree with that sentiment.

Those that hate god seem to be most of the self-proclaimed good christians i've met over the course of my life, all the way back starting with my best friend's step-mother that would grill me about god every time I went to their house, and in a matter-of-fact tone tell ten-year-old Slanter that he was going to burn in hell for eternity.

I'm not saying i haven't met any christians I get along with, I enjoy civil discussions about religion, it just seems the ones that are the most obsessed with their own holiness are also obsessed with your damnation.

I do understand your reasons and many Christians go about it the wrong way.

If the church would teach their flock globally like the Jehovah Witnesses do to their flock then there would be less confusion and misleading statements made by Christians.

NOW STOP - what the JW teach is not all scripture .... what I mean is the structure/the art of how they teach is effective. I do not support some of the JW teachings.

If the church used their style most would be on the same page. Here is one of the main reasons why there are Christians out here spewing a hateful message.....bad teacher = bad/poor pastor.

originally posted by: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing
Why do you reject Thor? Or Zeus? Or Krishna? there were people who had been 'awakened' by Thor's spirituality in much the same way religious people today are by their chosen gods.

When you are lying at deaths door and you take that first step outside of that earth suit, rest assured that Thor, Zeus, and Krishna will be the very LAST thing on your mind.

Nor will they be there to welcome you to, depending of course on where you decide to spend eternity.

Some people I've asked believe in God and in the bible mostly because:

They were told to and accept arguments of authority even though the bible claims no author.

We yearn for meaning of our circumstance and actions, and this yearning has pushed us to various claims to answering deep philosophical questions stemming from "how did the world start?".
These claims include the book of Genesis, which make better sense to us than other claims.

Others I've asked do not believe in God and in the bible mostly because:

They were told not to and accept arguments of authority.

Other claims to answering deep philosophical questions such as "how did the world start" or "how people came to be" make better sense to them.

Now in a spirit of denying ignorance I must say of this fourth group:

Congratulations. And thank you for expressing the answers convincing to you so that we of this second group may have an opportunity to change our minds.

ATS members of this fourth group, please notice how "the big bang theory" is popular television programming and "in the beginning" isn't.

Please notice how "the selfish gene" is a book telling you that being selfish is inherent to people's biological programming, whereas "the bible" is not.

Please notice that the lack of contemporary dinosaurs as a consequence of more (less big) bangs not affecting your fish-to-monkey ancestry in the same way may not be more accurate than the lack of contemporary dinosaurs as a result of woman and man eating the fruit of the tree of science of good and evil and not dying in the process of attacking dragons at the head until they can only attack us at the heel.

& c.

Thank you

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing
Why do you reject Thor? Or Zeus? Or Krishna? there were people who had been 'awakened' by Thor's spirituality in much the same way religious people today are by their chosen gods.

When you are lying at deaths door and you take that first step outside of that earth suit, rest assured that Thor, Zeus, and Krishna will be the very LAST thing on your mind.

Nor will they be there to welcome you to, depending of course on where you decide to spend eternity.

Not if you are a devout follower of those gods. Tell that to a Viking, an ancient Greek or a Hindu. They were (in the case of Krishna, 'are') just as convinced in them as you are in your god.

If someone believes in a god or belief system only because that was the belief system they were taught, and there was no personal revelation, are they true believers of the GOD or belief system?

I have met many religious people who belive what they believe because that's how they were raised and taught to believe, and I am not sure if they are just following their family beliefs or if it is real to them.

a reply to: Woodcarver

It is not my intention to "stroke my ego"

Am I bias? Of course...we all are and anyone who says they are not is a liar.

You are bias about your beliefs.... just like everyone else.

Don't you think asking for proof is childish? Can you not research it yourself and find the proof? Today we have the internet, libraries of books and manuals, testimonies from around the world of healings, NDE, people risen from the dead etc....

Maybe you simply reject this proof because you think you are someone special who needs special attention in this matter?

Are you better than me? Are you better than everyone else?

Most people on this planet believe in the supernatural (all beliefs combined) and yet the small elect, like you, refuse to believe. I have met people like you and there is ALWAYS something psychological that happened to cause you to think this way. Either your hate is towards someone who forced feed you religion or you hate God for some reason or you work for Satan...... which is it?

a reply to: DeathSlayer

To see yourself as one of the Chosen Ones is a dangerous and delusional path.

Dangerous because it makes it that much easier to see others as below you and deserving of bad things that may come their way. This can be just a little bit in the back of your mind or taken as far as the point of declaring others as unworthy.

Delusional because it's completely irrational to see yourself as Chosen whereas others are not.
For instance, I(and many other atheists/agnostics) was raised in the Catholic Church - baptized and communion. Then, my father fell into the Worldwide Church of God(think Jehovah's Witness kind of) I sang in the choir, I fell for the lies...at first. Thankfully, the weirdness of that church got me to questioning, which led me down a path that would be considered a spiritual journey that ended with the understanding I have today that there is no God, no souls, no afterlife whatsoever.

So, was I Chosen and then rejected? Well that doesn't make sense, does it? There's countless others (including Mother Theresa) that have come to their senses through study, and personal introspection.

However, there's still millions of those in VARIOUS faiths that deem themselves the Chosen Ones and would say you and every other Christian are not. They "feel" their god in their hearts and minds just as you do, if not even more fervently. What about that?

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Now lets take a look at those who refuse to believe.....

Why People Reject the Bible

What about those who don’t accept the Bible? Scripture is equally plain as to why this is the case:

“Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him” (Matt. 11:25–27).
“To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. . . .This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand” (Matt. 13:11–15).
“And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this [that Jesus is the Christ] to you, but My Father who is in heaven”” (Matt. 16:17)
“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear my word. You are of your father the devil” (John 8:43–44).
“Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God” (John 8:47).
“you do not believe because you are of My sheep” (John 10:26).
“For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot” (Rom. 8:7).
“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (1 Cor. 2:14).
“Even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing” (2 Cor. 4:3).
“We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error” (1 John 4:6).
While non-Christians may provide many explanations as to why they discard the Bible, the actual reason they don’t believe is that God hasn’t spiritually awakened them (yet). The objection of not having enough proof fails to hold water because (1) there is plenty of evidence that attests to the Bible’s validity; (2) people act contrary to evidence all the time, as I point out in my article that discusses evidence and hard core unbelief.

Thou you can see you can not see God, thou you can hear, you can not hear God.

You are not a child of God because you reject him.

Oh just piss off already. Don't per use to tell me why I don believe in an invisible man in the sky who allows infants to suffer and then die...because they are born with sin in them. Vile. Vile vile vile.


Religion is a cancer. Time to cut it out.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Why is asking for proof childish? It seems to me that asking for proof of your claims is the more responsible position than just blindly believing things that you would like to be true.

Why do you always go to the "i must be angry" argument. This is the most desperate position there is. You cannot just concoct another fantasy to explain the reason that your evidence is not compelling. I am not angry in the least. I am simply asking for proof, but this is the nemesis to your position of believing your own comforting bias. Proof is the one thing you will never have on your side, so you have to demonize those who bring it up.

This request will never go away, so why not address it head on?

a reply to: DeathSlayer

This has got to be your 1000th thread about how you believe in god therefore it must be true. And still you have not added anything to the argument.

Oh wait, i guess this thread adds the new component of "since i believe i must be special/chosen". What a wank fest.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

A song we sang in church when I was a child.
"ahem, me me me, la la la la,,,,,

First verse.

"Jesus loves me this I know
for the Bible tells me so"

I sang it for years and years until one morning as a teenager I stumbled upon a thought.
It was a very simple thought and it went exactly like this.

"Jesus loves me this I know
for the Bible tells me so?????"

"Wait just one moment please" said the me who had never had this thought to the me who just had. "Of course you know Jesus loves you because all the people around you know he does and you have believed it your whole life."

"Yes' said the me who had had this new thought, "but how do all those people around you know it"

Well that stopped the me who had not had that thought. He had no answer until he realized that all those people around him believed Jesus loved them because, well, because the Bible told them so.

And the me who had had that thought then said to the me who had not had that thought, Can you see it yet? It's buzzing right there before you, you just need to grasp it.

And the me who had not had that thought, thought, "Let's see. I know Jesus loves me. Why? Because the Bible tells me so. "But wait" said the me who had not had that thought to himself, I know that I believe the Bible because I believe in Jesus, and I believe in Jesus because I believe the Bible.

And poof, the me who had never had that thought disappeared as I realized the whole fallacy of circular reasoning.

originally posted by: sociolpath
If someone believes in a god or belief system only because that was the belief system they were taught, and there was no personal revelation, are they true believers of the GOD or belief system?

I have met many religious people who belive what they believe because that's how they were raised and taught to believe, and I am not sure if they are just following their family beliefs or if it is real to them.

Very good point. I can only speak of my experiences but I have had many spiritual experiences both while awake and asleep (Lucid dreaming to those of non belief)

I am not sure if I ever met a real Christian that has NOT had at least one supernatural experience.... hey I could be wrong of course! BUT I have not met one..... and those who have left the faith for the most part have NOT had a supernatural experience.

We humans are VERY weird...... What is the difference between a child and an adult? The adult is taller.!!!

I have met so many piety humans who act worse than most children. Many look to place blame on something in order to justify their beliefs and way of living instead of looking for the cause and solution.

originally posted by: gottaknow
a reply to: DeathSlayer

To see yourself as one of the Chosen Ones is a dangerous and delusional path.

Dangerous because it makes it that much easier to see others as below you and deserving of bad things that may come their way. This can be just a little bit in the back of your mind or taken as far as the point of declaring others as unworthy.

Delusional because it's completely irrational to see yourself as Chosen whereas others are not.
For instance, I(and many other atheists/agnostics) was raised in the Catholic Church - baptized and communion. Then, my father fell into the Worldwide Church of God(think Jehovah's Witness kind of) I sang in the choir, I fell for the lies...at first. Thankfully, the weirdness of that church got me to questioning, which led me down a path that would be considered a spiritual journey that ended with the understanding I have today that there is no God, no souls, no afterlife whatsoever.

So, was I Chosen and then rejected? Well that doesn't make sense, does it? There's countless others (including Mother Theresa) that have come to their senses through study, and personal introspection.

However, there's still millions of those in VARIOUS faiths that deem themselves the Chosen Ones and would say you and every other Christian are not. They "feel" their god in their hearts and minds just as you do, if not even more fervently. What about that?

And yet there are numerous Muslims, Hindu's, etc.... where Jesus appeared to them and chose them out right. Hardcore believers in their faiths and within seconds walk away from a life long study and worship of their beliefs. How can that be? This is nothing less than a miracle in itself. Have you ever tried to convince a person of another faith to leave it? I try all the time and most of the time I walk away empty handed. Have you ever tried to convince an atheist to believe in God? I do all the time .... here at ATS and does it do any good? Most of the time NO but not always.

If using the word "chosen" bothers you than what about SELECTED? Is that better?

I was SELECTED to be class president did that make me delusional? Of course not.

Simply going to church and singing hymns does nothing. Going to church once a week and then living a life of sin for the rest of the week is nothing more than a hypocrite. Demons love going to church. Most congregations have many hateful, gossiping, jealous, adulterous people roaming the halls of their church POSING as Christians.

You asked if you were chosen and then later rejected, right? Well, if you had to ask then you never were chosen..oops I mean SELECTED.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

By supernatural experiences do you mean "miracles" like surviving a car crash, or supernatural events like "seeing an angel" or the like?

A few "supernatural" events christians have related to me seem little more than chance, like the guy who became a pastor because his car slid on ice, did a 360 spin, and straightened out and kept going without hitting anyone. Other's have been subjective and difficult to identify, like "feelings." Going to church people say then can "feel the lord" in them, but I also had some friends that swore that they could hear their crystals talking to each other and feel the "energy" in the crystal.

They've tried waving the crystal in front of my face saying things like "Really? You can't feel that? You must be blocked!" and religious people tell me "If you can't feel christs spirit within you must be closing yourself off!" but a large part of me can't help but think "What if they're all deluding themselves into this fuzzy feeling?"

If you could describe physically what the spirit of christs feels like how would you? Is it a buzzing? a tingling in the back of your head/neck/spine?

a reply to: DeathSlayer

At the risk of sounding confrontational, are you insinuating that no hardcore christians have ever became buddhists, hindus, or muslims? I doubt that. Naturally, your rebuttal will be "Well, no TRUE christians would turn from the real faith." but you have to realize that that is exactly what the muslims say about muslims who become christian. So yes, people change their minds all the time, that still isn't evidence that your belief is truth above all others.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Who and what you believe in is tied to where you are born more than any other factor.

Religion is what happens when a self-aware life form has absolutely no other way of comprehending their place in the world around them. It's a coping mechanism, and a very good one at that. They literally are unable, from a cognitive standpoint, to handle the idea that they are, in fact, a lucky coincidence of DNA and timing and nothing more. That they are so infinitesimally small and unimportant in the whole scheme of things that their very existence can be snuffed out in an instant and at any moment, and the universe would never even notice.

I get it, it's a tough reality we live in, we are practically nothing. But I don't think that pretending there's a magical guy up in the sky that loves you and tells you what to do is quite the right way to handle this lack of comprehension. It's frankly, rather childish. I would suggest that, oh, I don't know, maybe science works better in trying to understand our place in the universe?

At least that's what I believe...