Jesus v. Paul : Did 'Saul of Tarsus' Pervert the Original Message of "Jesus" & "James" ?

a reply to: Seede
Jonah spoke from the belly
"Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the GRACE that could be theirs"

One cannot follow Torah and accept NEW gods and Torah does not support messiah as G-d

This is why Paul had to abandon Torah as foundational in Christian doctrine

a reply to: Sigismundus

How dare you. Who do you think you are? You don't get to talk about Paul like that pal he met Jesus did you meet Jesus? He is THE apostle.

a reply to: the2ofusr1
Please show me where the Bible claims to be:
#1...The Word of G-d
#2...Infallible
#3...Holy

Paul said "for other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid?'
Paul offers a tripod, not a foundation, something that can stand level on uneven surface yet cannot stand if one leg fails.

The Bible contain's G-d's words, it also contains Satan's, and Haman's, and Pharaoh's on and on
Dogma of perfect Bible is foundation of atheists numerous proofs.

a reply to: thegimprider

The Bible nowhere says it is a Bible but that is what it is .It shows that the Bible is made up of many Bibles because Bible means Book . your point ?

originally posted by: Sigismundus
a reply to: the2ofusr1

You wrote QUOTE "I use a standard bible and not a highly redacted one . go figure eh..." UNQUOTE

Then look up in your standard bible the following quotation not by some 2nd hand Gospel writer in the 80s CE ('Luke'/'Acts') but by Paul himself 30 years earlier in the 50s CE...

Galatians chapter 2 : 6-15





" As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my Message. ...James, Cephas and John, those so-called Pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised...When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ..."

It is clear that there was a clear blow up between the two camps (Pauline faith churches v. Nazorean/James circumcision churches) in this letter written by Paul himself, not some later editor/gospel writer 30 years later.

Paul's good buddy Luke wrote Acts. If you are trying to say it was some fiction or watered down contraption. There are some contradictions between the above and acts in the portions presented, but then Paul contradicted himself on the matter of circumcision. Maybe Paul was just trying to cover his ass.

And remember, if you think maybe Peter ended up coming under the influence of James and the circumcisers, not only did Paul circumcise he did a good bit of running around with Peter at some point......who was manifesting the miracles done by his master.

originally posted by: Metatron365
a reply to: Sigismundus

How dare you. Who do you think you are? You don't get to talk about Paul like that pal he met Jesus did you meet Jesus? He is THE apostle.

The one place that I have seen the most division, the most divisive christian against christian are from these hard Pauline christians taking Paul into their carnal minds.

Paul violated his own directive for handling elders the way he talked about Peter....a man out raising the dead, healing the lame and making the blind to see. Paul sounds envious here. And thats giving Paul great respect at the same time.

a reply to: Logarock
Er, don't take Metatron at face value. He is (or was) a user with multiple accounts who has been fiercely anti-Pauline in most of them.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Sigismundus

TextPaul taught that the gift of salvation through Grace occurs apart from any behavioral requirement:

Not completely true. Salvation through Grace is forgiveness. Forgiveness hinges upon repenting and repenting hinges upon behavioral requirements.

Yea and at that Paul wasn't talking about "behavior" but by religious acts like circumcision as part of gaining the kingdom. Paul and the Pharisee christians didn't disagree about sin i.e. what was it.

a reply to: the2ofusr1
Those 3 claims are the point fundamentalists use to force their doctrines down the world's throat.
Taking snippets of THE WORD OF GOD and building complete churches while ignoring the meat of complete poem structures.

The Bible is a group of poems or songs, most is written in meter from Hebrew
Metaphor is important because spiritual truth cannot be contained in written form, only alluded to.
Hence I write G-d out of respect of Jewish ideals, not because I have converted to Judaism.

Rabbi Jesus most likely would have deferred the question of circumcision as a Jewish treaty, not a human treaty
He would not have divided it into the extreme issue Paul made it.

a reply to: thegimprider

The way I see it «st. Paul's» obsession about abolishing circumcision is explained in how it would guarantee that no future Christians would ever set a foot inside any synagogue ever again, or have any mandate or political influence or theological credibility in anything even remotely Jewish. «St. Paul» was and remains an antichrist and the prototype of the False Prophet. 666 written in Hebrew numerals is תרסו, go figure...

There is little written on Jesus by historians from first century but Celsus wrote about Jesus in second century....

The Platonistic philosopher Celsus, writing circa 150 to 200 CE, wrote a narrative describing a Jew who discounts the story of the Virgin Birth of Jesus. Scholars have remarked on the parallels (adultery, father's name "Panthera", return from Egypt, magical powers) between Celsus' account and the Talmudic narratives. In Celsus' account, the Jew says:

". . .[Jesus] came from a Jewish village and from a poor country woman who earned her living by spinning. He says that she was driven out by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, as she was convicted of adultery. Then he says that after she had been driven out by her husband and while she was wandering about in a disgraceful way she secretly gave birth to Jesus. He states that because he [Jesus] was poor he hired himself out as a workman in Egypt, and there tried his hand at certain magical powers on which the Egyptians pride themselves; he returned full of conceit, because of these powers, and on account of them gave himself the title of God . . . the mother of Jesus is described as having been turned out by the carpenter who was betrothed to her, as she had been convicted of adultery and had a child by a certain soldier named Panthera

Link

So if the Jewish accounts are true it would explain why the oldest Gospel, that of Mark, begins with the calling of John the Baptist in the wilderness (no virgin birth) nor mentions the resurrection. Mark tells of a man that conquered egoism to become one with his spiritual nature. It would also explains why there is an obelisk in the Vatican. While Rome empowers themselves as GODS spokesman on earth though their form of Christianity, they themselves idealize RA.

a reply to: glend

Do you have any idea how many Jewish kids named Jesus (Joshua) were running around during that time? It was a very popular name.

Anyway, we don't have any of Celsus' writings, we only have snippets of his supposed arguments against Christianity from Origen's "Against Celsus". Even that document is highly edited, admittedly by Jerome and Eusebius, to preserve Origen's writings after being declared a heretic and his works ordered burned.

Any valid argument from Celsus would have been edited out and forever destroyed along with Origin's questionable writings.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: thegimprider

The way I see it «st. Paul's» obsession about abolishing circumcision is explained in how it would guarantee that no future Christians would ever set a foot inside any synagogue ever again, or have any mandate or political influence or theological credibility in anything even remotely Jewish. «St. Paul» was and remains an antichrist and the prototype of the False Prophet. 666 written in Hebrew numerals is תרסו, go figure...

His obsession had to do with a sect of christians running around telling gentile churches, that he founded, they had to be circumcised to complete the work of salvation. The other really bad thing about this is that at its core was/were Jewish national/tribal interests. The Jews already had a complete attachment methodology ect fro gentiles to join up as it was and saw the christain anti-circumcision thing as a problem to that for one.

a reply to: Metatron365

You wrote QUOTE "How dare you. Who do you think you are? You don't get to talk about Paul like that pal he met Jesus did you meet Jesus? He is THE apostle..." UNQUOTE

Methinks the Lady doth Protest a little too much. Actually, Saul of Tarsus (in present day Turkey) aka 'Paul' never ever met ho Iesous ("Jesus") in the flesh, only in dreams and visions, like my cook.

What makes you think 'Paul's' experience was more valid than e.g. the disciples who lived and worked with 'Yehoshua bar Yosef' while he was still alive in Palestine? How dare he call himself an 'apostle' when he never even met the man...

a reply to: windword

seems the missionaries were quick to throw down inquistion in every corner of the world as they came across it after cannonization of the jesus or jewish savior... one has to wonder was it preservation of his word or theirs... if this person accepted as god on earth... how would an ocean bind him, or contain to just one culture? it sems more like after he as caught and crucified they searced for his tracks not knowing the language but the symbology started laying waste to all that may contain truth of the matter...

who is the great deciever here? and who lights the way... one of the biggest deceptions known in humanity is to plant suggestions so the victim(s) think they chose or drew the conclusion and then the attacker simply agrees with them... to validate the very nonsense they brainwashed the person with... to arrive at that conclusion.

the southern cross guides in winter as the northern star polaris guides in summer. if you look towards space... 365 at the southern cross it forms a circle for the whole year. this is time as seen in space and why the story of gods were bastardized by whatever civilization looking to repress into their own and conquer those found in animism or one with their environment in a universal harmony... enter space? there are no constellations as youre no longer the fixed point its just stars from proxima centari what do you think the stars look like? big dipper etc? lol its nonsense... of the most dominate species on the planet fueled by a sociopathic history... we want to call that hostile take over progress and worship it? no thanks humanity embraced gives the full picture not just those wishing to corner us all in with control as slaves to some agenda hidden or known and to be made some conspirator of for a piece of the action.

this is the disease and sickness of humanity... think a benevolent species watching would embrace us or mark quarantine and cross their fingers?

a reply to: thegimprider

Jesus mission was not Pauls mission .Think about the Gentile woman who wanted to eat of the crumbs that fell from the Jewish table .Paul would later be instructed to take the Gospel to the Gentiles because the Nation of Israel had rejected it . It became a open source of redemption to both Jew and Gentile . Now its a matter of numbers or time which will determine the time of the Gentiles .