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Jesus v. Paul : Did 'Saul of Tarsus' Pervert the Original Message of "Jesus" & "James" ?

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posted on Feb, 13 2016 @ 04:33 PM
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Jesus v. Paul : Did 'Paul' Pervert the Original Message of "Jesus" ?

For nearly 2,000 years, 'Paul' has been forced into the Gospels and the Gospels have been forced into Paul-and this process has continued until the present day.

Evangelicalism is facing a crisis about the relationship of Jesus to Paul, and many today are choosing sides.

Why should modern day Christians pay any attention at all to 'Paul' the self-serving Tarsian who repeatedly called himself an 'Apostle' - even though he never ever met 'Jesus' in the flesh, only in dreams and visions (like my Cook) and moreover fought with the Disciples (see Galatians chapter 2) ?
For nearly 2,000 years, 'Paul' has been forced into the Gospels and the Gospels have been forced into Paul-and this process has continued until the present day.

To-day 95% of Christian Churches are 'Pauline' Churches, including the Roman Catholic Church and the Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches, that is, they follow the precepts of Saul of Tarsus as exemplified in the Epistles attributed to him in the New Testament and tend to ignore 'James' (with his 1 epistle in the NT canon) who was the blood brother of 'Jesus' (though not one of the 12) and headed up a group called the Evionim, 'the poor ones.'

Despite the Church's stance to the contrary, modern biblical scholars have long known that the messages of 'Jesus' and 'Paul' were fundamentally different and reconciliation of their messages cannot be achieved by any simple harmonization - and no help seems to be able to come from all the theological gibberish that the gospel is the kingdom and the kingdom is the gospel &tc.

Jesus (alligned with his brother James the Just) seems to have preached the 'Kingdom of God' with a heavy emphasis on Ma'aseh ha Torah ('works of the Law') whereas Paul rarely mentions the Kingdom at all - less than a dozen times - rather he chose to preach 'his own gospel' of 'justification by Faith alone', with no emphasis on 'works' which is something "Jesus" did not preach, at least according to the 4 canonical Greek Gospels of the NT.
Paul referred to this different Gospel of his as "my gospel" (Romans 2.16, 16.25; 2 Timothy 2.8; Galatians 2.2). and revealed that his Gospel was a "secret" (μυστήριον, cf. Romans 16.25).

This indicated it was different from the gospel Jesus or the Twelve preached. Luke's account of the Council of Jerusalem made this clear (Acts 15). Paul separated from the Twelve after his conversion and Paul's contact with the Twelve was extremely limited (cf. Galatians 1.1, 11-12, 15-19).

Paul shows concern for the poor of Jerusalem, but Jesus' caring for the poor and the outcast, and a revolutionary message about possessions—well, they just don't show up enough in Paul to conclude that Paul was teaching the same thing as Jesus.

Kingdom and justification are not the same thing What makes Paul tick at the level of language just doesn't make Jesus tick.

The messages of Jesus and Paul were fundamentally different and Reconciliation of their messages cannot be done by harmonization and no benefit comes from theological gibberish that the gospel is the kingdom and the kingdom is the gospel. We can't find much in the Gospels that shows Jesus thinking in terms of 'justification by faith.

This conundrum was noted as early as the late 18th century, and no less a personage than Thomas Jefferson (while president in 1804) sought to isolate Paul's perversions from his own copy of the Bible ('the Jefferson Bible') which cut and pasted only those words attributed to Jesus himself and leaving James and Paul out completely.

In modern times, a controversial book came out back in 1986 entitled, "The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity" by Hyam Maccoby - (written for the general reader), and presents in clear (but highly speculative form) his own thesis that Paul synthesized Judaism, Gnosticism, and the Mithraic Mystery Religion to create ("Pauline") Christianity as a cosmic savior-god religion.

According to Maccoby, Paul's view of women, though inconsistent, reflects his Gnosticism in its anti-feminist aspects. As a Jewish Talmudic scholar, Maccoby believes that Paul's wide variance from the Jerusalem Church (Nazorean Christianity under Jesus brother James) led to the final splitting off of Christianity from Messianic 1st century Judaism.


Paul v. James

Paul taught that the gift of salvation through Grace occurs apart from any behavioral requirement:

Romans 3:28 : "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the Works of the law (ma'aseh haTorah).

Paul (and his school) reiterates this position in: Romans 4:6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; II Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 -- yet no other Bible writer ever makes this point of stating that salvation occurs apart from or separate from works, which Paul not only states, but reiterates quite emphatically.

Paul is specifically rebutted by the later writing of James (the brother of Jesus) who offers one of the most striking and dramatic direct contradictions in James 2:24.

Here he chooses language and syntactical structures which specifically contradicts Paul's wording in Romans 3:28 in both content and construction:
Here are the two passages,

Romans 3:28 (Paul)
KJV: a man is justified by Faith apart from Works of the Law (ma'aseh haTorah)

James 2:24 (James' rebuttal)
KJV: a man is justified not by Faith alone but by Works of the Law (ma'aseh ha Torah)

We could put these statements into a formula:

J = Justification.
F = Faith
W = Works

Paul's formula: J = F - W
James' formula: J = F + W


Now keep a civil Keyboard under your fingertips !


edit on 13-2-2016 by Sigismundus because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 13 2016 @ 04:46 PM
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a reply to: Sigismundus

I felt the need to place this into the equation

Acts 15New International Version (NIV)

The Council at Jerusalem
15 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.



posted on Feb, 13 2016 @ 04:52 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

You wrote QUOTE "I felt the need to place this into the equation (Acts 15:15ff)" UNQUOTE

The Book of Acts was written by the same author as the Gospel of 'Luke' (whosever he was) and glosses over many of the differences between the Nazorean Ebionites under James ('the Lord's Brother') and Paul with regards to Kashrut dietary laws and Circumcision for Gentiles. Unfortunately these are not eyewitness statements or quotations from reality, but are the invention of the gospel writer.

Surely you knew this already?



posted on Feb, 13 2016 @ 04:54 PM
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a reply to: Sigismundus

I use a standard bible and not a highly redacted one . go figure eh .



posted on Feb, 13 2016 @ 05:09 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

You wrote QUOTE "I use a standard bible and not a highly redacted one . go figure eh..." UNQUOTE

Then look up in your standard bible the following quotation not by some 2nd hand Gospel writer in the 80s CE ('Luke'/'Acts') but by Paul himself 30 years earlier in the 50s CE...

Galatians chapter 2 : 6-15


"ἀπὸ δὲ τῶν δοκούντων εἶναί τι,— ὁποῖοί ποτε ἦσαν οὐδέν μοι διαφέρει· πρόσωπον ὁ Θεὸς ἀνθρώπου οὐ λαμβάνει— ἐμοὶ γὰρ οἱ δοκοῦντες οὐδὲν προσανέθεντο, 7 ἀλλὰ τοὐναντίον ἰδόντες ὅτι πεπίστευμαι τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τῆς ἀκροβυστίας καθὼς Πέτρος τῆς περιτομῆς, ... 8 ὁ γὰρ ἐνεργήσας Πέτρῳ εἰς ἀποστολὴν τῆς περιτομῆς ἐνήργησεν καὶ ἐμοὶ εἰς τὰ ἔθνη, καὶ γνόντες τὴν χάριν τὴν δοθεῖσάν μοι, Ἰάκωβος καὶ Κηφᾶς καὶ Ἰωάννης*, οἱ οκοῦντες στῦλοι εἶναι, δεξιὰς ἔδωκαν ἐμοὶ καὶ Βαρνάβα κοινωνίας, ἵνα ἡμεῖς εἰς τὰ ἔθνη, αὐτοὶ δὲ εἰς τὴν περιτομήν· ... Ὅτε δὲ ἦλθεν Κηφᾶς εἰς Ἀντιόχειαν, κατὰ πρόσωπον αὐτῷ ἀντέστην, ὅτι κατεγνωσμένος ἦν. 12 πρὸ τοῦ γὰρ ἐλθεῖν τινας ἀπὸ Ἰακώβου μετὰ τῶν ἐθνῶν συνήσθιεν· ὅτε δὲ ἦλθον, ὑπέστελλεν καὶ ἀφώριζεν ἑαυτόν, φοβούμενος τοὺς ἐκ περιτομῆς. 13 καὶ συνυπεκρίθησαν αὐτῷ καὶ οἱ λοιποὶ Ἰουδαῖοι, ὥστε καὶ Βαρνάβας συναπήχθη αὐτῶν τῇ ὑποκρίσει. 14 ἀλλ’ ὅτε εἶδον ὅτι οὐκ ὀρθοποδοῦσιν πρὸς τὴν ἀλήθειαν τοῦ εὐαγγελίου, εἶπον τῷ Κηφᾷ ἔμπροσθεν πάντων Εἰ σὺ Ἰουδαῖος ὑπάρχων ἐθνικῶς καὶ οὐκ Ἰουδαϊκῶς ζῇς, πῶς τὰ ἔθνη ἀναγκάζεις ἰουδαΐζειν;

15 Ἡμεῖς φύσει Ἰουδαῖοι καὶ οὐκ ἐξ ἐθνῶν ἁμαρτωλοί, εἰδότες δὲ ὅτι οὐ δικαιοῦται ἄνθρωπος ἐξ ἔργων νόμου ἐὰν μὴ διὰ πίστεως Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ..."


" As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my Message. ...James, Cephas and John, those so-called Pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised...When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ..."

It is clear that there was a clear blow up between the two camps (Pauline faith churches v. Nazorean/James circumcision churches) in this letter written by Paul himself, not some later editor/gospel writer 30 years later.





edit on 13-2-2016 by Sigismundus because: stuttteringg computerrr keuyyboarddd



posted on Feb, 13 2016 @ 05:11 PM
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Matthew 7
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.



Matthew 7
26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.


Jesus said that those who kept his words (love others) is like a wise man, but those who did not were like a foolish man.


Romans 7
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.


Paul does not do what he wants to do, meaning he does not practice the words of Jesus. He is a foolish man who built his house on sand. The church is that house and its thousands of denominations are the sand giving way.



posted on Feb, 13 2016 @ 05:17 PM
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a reply to: Sigismundus

Yes and if there was someone who's character was of a rebellious nature it was Peter .Jesus even said to him get behind me satan . Peter was playing the hypocrite and Paul called him out on it .



posted on Feb, 13 2016 @ 05:20 PM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1




Paul does not do what he wants to do, meaning he does not practice the words of Jesus. He is a foolish man who built his house on sand. The church is that house and its thousands of denominations are the sand giving way.
I think Paul is saying what most Christians would say and what they struggle with inside . I know I sure do .Its hard work trying to act like a Christian .



posted on Feb, 13 2016 @ 05:25 PM
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Yes. Paul is a false prophet from my point of view where Yeshua taught how to become anointed. But some people love free ride faith and not having to pickup the cross and that is why Paul:s Jesus name worship is so popular.



posted on Feb, 13 2016 @ 05:33 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

You might find this interesting:

15www.herealittletherealittle.net...



posted on Feb, 13 2016 @ 05:38 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

Then Jesus is calling all Christians foolish. You do not sin if you love your neighbor as yourself, love covers a multitude of sins and fulfills the law.

You cannot claim to believe in Jesus and also continue to sin everyday. If you believe in Jesus then you follow his words and his words lead to a sinless life.



posted on Feb, 13 2016 @ 05:44 PM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1




Then Jesus is calling all Christians foolish. You do not sin if you love your neighbor as yourself, love covers a multitude of sins and fulfills the law.

You cannot claim to believe in Jesus and also continue to sin everyday. If you believe in Jesus then you follow his words and his words lead to a sinless life.
Jesus said He came into the world to save sinners and not the righteous . I am not righteous but am a sinner and I excepted the salvation He provided for me by just believing in Him . You being a righteous person and not needing His salvation are left to stand before God and give account to Him . I on the other hand have a mediator between me and God and He sits on the right hand of God . My works are like filthy rags but what Jesus did for me is make me right before God .



posted on Feb, 13 2016 @ 06:08 PM
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a reply to: Mordekai38

Thanks for the link . I am going to do a bit of reading on the authors work that is discussed here michaelsheiser.com... Once I get through that I migh head back to check out some of his writings .



posted on Feb, 13 2016 @ 06:33 PM
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a reply to: Sigismundus

Paul had a new message meant for all men from his calling unto the gathering of the Body of Christ unto Jesus.

That is the Gospel of the Grace of God.

because he chose not to give Israel the promise until the fullness of time has come.

until you learn to rightly divide the word of truth you will only blend the gospels and/or say Paul was a liar.



posted on Feb, 13 2016 @ 08:24 PM
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Quick, let me get in on page 1....Oh man.... Paul is the 12th....it's true
.....the title says Jesus and James....james 4:10...Jesus came to save all men, especially the believers, that's the start.

So, I could fill volumes but to get this one has to read it......clearly that's what's missing. I'm just the one to fill in the facts...Hail, I'm 63.....

Do you guys agree Paul plowed deeper than other writers....that's the biggy. plus what he went through, plus the reason we have the letters is because he was in jail, getting food from others....and pen and paper.....the vote to fill the vacant spot was from man.....that's not allowed....God chooses......
edit on 13-2-2016 by GBP/JPY because: our new King.....He comes right after a nicely done fake one

edit on 13-2-2016 by GBP/JPY because: our new King.....He comes right after a nicely done fake one

edit on 13-2-2016 by GBP/JPY because: our new King.....He comes right after a nicely done fake one



posted on Feb, 13 2016 @ 09:46 PM
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edit on 13-2-2016 by jobless1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 02:03 PM
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a reply to: Sigismundus

I don't want you to be in error with the scriptures leaning to your own understanding...this is where you need revelation from God, not trying to "figure out what scriptures mean"....James is referring to measure of faith and Romans is referring to salvation...James: man's measure of faith is justified by works and not faith alone (faith without works is dead)....Romans: man's salvation is justified by faith alone in Christ Jesus and not works.



posted on Feb, 14 2016 @ 08:14 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

You don't need a mediator between yourself and God, believing so is to give your power to someone else and to undermine yourself.

Jesus said that when you pray to do it alone, meaning there is no mediator required, only yourself and God, no middle man.

You alone can connect to God who is within you, you don't need any outside influence to connect to God. That line of thinking is how emperors throughout history have gained their power, through the complacent and self-demeaned populace.

Jesus' sacrifice is a tool used by those in power to mentally enslave you and keep you from realizing your true potential, which is a direct connection with God within yourself. You are not separate from God, God is integral to your very being and always has been, even before you believed Jesus died for your sins.

God is All in All, there is no separation and never has been. It is those in power who want you to believe you have been separated from him because in that way they can take advantage of you.



posted on Feb, 15 2016 @ 12:31 AM
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You guys will like this....

It's about Paul plowing deep...I have more but just this will make ya believe...

Paul said we have a struggle with evil in us...in our body anyway....and in our mind....plus spirit...so the battle is up to us to discipline......self discipline even.....to control our thoughts, Hey Jesus said that come to think of it......He said the kingdom of God is within us.....how we think, we are...

But old man Paul said this.........we battle our imaginations.........He was talking to me.....now I have to change what I imagine....huh!! cause I'm terrible with that.....always have been

edit on 15-2-2016 by GBP/JPY because: our new King.....He comes right after a nicely done fake one



posted on Feb, 15 2016 @ 06:47 AM
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a reply to: Mordekai38

I want to thank you again for that link .My use of the incident in acts was to establish that Paul was accepted by James ,Peter , and the elders in Jerusalem and that he was correct in what had seemed to him to be in error (circumcision) . What I did get out of that link from you were a few nuggets or pearls I was not looking for . thanks . Combining what James had said in Acts ,your link and a recent podcast on Leviticus by Micheal Heiser put or completed the unraveling of my confusion on that subject .




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