When Bob Lazar Declared Gravity As a Wave

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Domo1

Ringworld sounds awesome!

Niven came up with a lot of stuff. Ringworld is part of what is known as his "known space" stories. Kzinti and Puppeteers and Moties, oh my.
A bit after the real "golden age" though, I think.

Humans bred for luck through a lottery, classic!

originally posted by: Gothmog
How bout Einstein predicted gravity as a wave and other physicists as well. I cant remember the name , but a research facility to detect gravity waves was in operation in the late 70s. No big surprise from this one

If light is a particle and a wave, why not gravity ? But , the one thing I notice in the OP about Lazar is the gravitons and his denial. So gravity cannot exist as a particle. That is my opposition to Lazar in the OP

Light propagates through free space by transforming itself from an electric field into a magnetic field that is out of phase to the electrical field by 90 degrees. This phase relationship is shown by the way a magnetic field establishes around a wire carrying current. A magnetic needle doesn't point along the current carrying wire, but deflects across it.

Engineers use a thing called the "right hand rule" to describe how electrical current flow aligns with magnetic fields around a wire. If you were to imagine a wire grasped in your right hand, your thumb pointing in the direction of current flow, then the magnetic field would follow in the direction of your fingers of your fist as they wrap the wires.

Gravity, however is caused by distortion to the metric of space (actually, space-time). Masses draw space-time 'in' causing it to become compressed around the masses. If you imagine two masses initially traveling in parallel to each other, the space-time between them will be scrunched up more than that on the outer sides of the two masses. This slightly changes the direction of the masses movement through space-time, making the masses start to veer in towards each other. If there are no other forces at play, the masses will eventually collide (while still traveling along close to their original trajectories).

Now if we were traveling along with one of the masses, we wouldn't necessarily know we were moving. We, and the mass to which we were associated, would be in the same reference frame and we'd probably assume that we weren't moving but everything else was. We'd see the other mass moving towards us as if by an invisible force. We call that force, gravity.

So gravity doesn't propagate like EM, it is part of the way space-time is and gravity waves are waves in gravity, not waves that make up gravity.

Also, gravity waves pretty much sort out the issue of how fast gravitational changes can propagate through space-time (i.e: are they instant or speed of light?). Changes to the structure of space-time are, provably, entirely limited to light speed as suggested by Einstein.

originally posted by: heliopolis

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Gothmog

How bout Einstein predicted gravity as a wave and other physicists as well.

Einstein did not "predict gravity as a wave." His equations said that variations in gravity could propagate through spacetime as waves.

but a research facility to detect gravity waves was in operation in the late 70s.

And it was not sensitive enough to detect them.

If light is a particle and a wave, why not gravity ?

Because light is radiation and gravity is a field.

You've gotta love Phage... Deals in nothing but hard, direct, blunt-force fact! lol

In regards to Lazar, I'm keeping an open mind on the whole thing. Sure you could say 'gravity waves were inevitable' and that he was a Sci-Fi fan but you still can't deny that the coincidences in his past comments compared to recent discoveries are very intriguing. Maybe he was just an over enthusiastic Science Fiction lover, if so then he did well to pick up on a couple of points out of the whole genre which in some way or another became science fact. And even if the properties he described for element 115 were not 100% correct, he managed to get my attention with it's potential existence well before the mainstream did.

That's just my 2 cents on the subject anyway....

The dual nature of sub-atomic components being particles and waves was known back then. If gravity were a particle, then it could be shielded (gravitational shielding) using suitable materials. H.G Wells The First Men in the Moon was based on that principle. There's been the idea of faster-than-light communication over vast distances using an "Ansible", maybe wormhole technology, quantum entanglement or tachyons.

The idea behind element 115 was that the nucleus was actually barbell shaped with two atomic nucleii very close together. That allowed for the control of gravity in some way.

I see a lot of people confuse the 2 terms, gravity waves and gravitational waves.

Gravity waves

In fluid dynamics, gravity waves are waves generated in a fluid medium or at the interface between two media when the force of gravity or buoyancy tries to restore equilibrium. An example of such an interface is that between the atmosphere and the ocean, which gives rise to wind waves.

Gravitational waves:

In physics, gravitational waves are ripples in the curvature of spacetime which propagate as waves, travelling outward from the source. Predicted in 1916[1][2] by Albert Einstein on the basis of his theory of general relativity,[3][4] gravitational waves transport energy as gravitational radiation. The existence of gravitational waves is a possible consequence of the Lorentz invariance of general relativity since it brings the concept of a limiting speed of propagation of the physical interactions with it. By contrast, gravitational waves cannot exist in the Newtonian theory of gravitation, which postulates that physical interactions propagate at infinite speed.

So, we are talking about gravitational waves, and not gravity waves.

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord

originally posted by: bananasam
Lazar had his fair share of criticisms, but out of every single person in this UFO research, at least 2 of his quantifiable assertions have come true before anyone knew the answer

Not so fast.

A lot of Lazar's assertions (if not all) are directly from the hard science fiction that sprung from the Golden Age of science fiction. Many "hard science fiction" authors became popular in the late 1940's and 1950's, with incredible story lines based on insanely speculative but plausible science.

Hal Clement wrote about gravity lenses that could focus gravity waves in the early 1950's.

Gravity waves/manipulation were a common theme with Poul Anderson.

Robert Heinlein used gravity waves a lot, in one story (Number of the Beast?) they were used to travel between parallel universes.

Lazar's "assertions" were well in-line with a fan of hard science fiction.

Don't we give kudos to "science fiction" when they get it right?
I mean, he was unequivocal about "gravity waves"... I'm not saying I believe Lazar's story I'm just saying he deserves some credit... He obviously knows what he's talking about.

a reply to: Brotherman

Brotherman, before I deliver the bulk of my response to your post, let me make clear the following:

I have only the most basic qualifications where science is concerned. I passed an exam at GCSE level, and attained a C grade in that exam. The exam in which I attained that grade, was taken when I was sixteen, and then again when I was seventeen, resulting in the eventual acquisition of that grade. All having that qualification really means, is that I understand the basic functions of my biology, and that Gravity is a thing, and that it maintains that up is up, down is down, and so on.

However, my interest in the sciences has always been enormous, and even I, with my relatively small qualification level in the subject, am aware of Einstein and his many predictions about physics and more specifically gravity, and how waves within its structure might be formed by events happening in space time. The mathematics of the same utterly baffle me. But the concept is something which has fascinated me since I was just ten years old.

Interest in and awareness of matters pertaining to the sciences are not the sole purview of the qualified, and indeed, nor are they the sole purview of those who are capable of using calculus, and understanding the underpinnings of the formula involved with those mathematical predictions. The concepts as described in English, are more than enough to fire some minds in such a way as to allow them to conceptualise the subject matter in a manner which allows them understanding.

Now, with specific regard to the OP, Lazar did nothing other than confuse the subject, both for himself, and for others. It does not take a genius to read the work of Einstein, and know it's value well enough to fictionalise elements of it. Nor does it take a genius to embellish any other scientific prediction, and suggest that it has already been observed and therefore proven to a degree. It does however mean that Lazar made claims he could not support with workable evidence, or repeatable experiments at the time, and it must also be stated boldly that the recent observations which confirmed Einstein's predictions, do not lend any weight to Lazars claims, what so ever. There is still no proof of any kind, that gravity acts in two streams, rather than as one singular force, and less evidence than that to suggest that Lazar ever worked on a project utilising gravity waves as part of some device or other.

In summary, gravity waves and element 115 being predicted is not something that only a genius or an experienced practitioner of high science and engineering would know of. I know that, because I am neither, and yet I know of both!

a reply to: Hex1an

It is more accurate to say that he knew what everyone else was talking about, and knew it well enough to BS his way through a significant amount of mostly press interviews, and the odd researcher into matters on the fringe.

Which is to say, that he knew how to BS people who did not know science, using modified versions of real theory, gussied up with his own brand of hookum to make them extra interesting to the unread observer. Quintessential snake oil salesmanship.

a reply to: bananasam


Yep! Lazar, like Einstein spent his life working with advanced math calculations such that he fairly well understood the workings of the universe too. How he had time for such deep thinking being a small-time electronics security system installer is beyond me. Maybe if he had gone to Princeton rather than Vegas....

a reply to: bananasam

I am sorry for these guys as Bob Lazar who said the truth and were sidelined for the rest f their lives. Instead, Kip Thorne who did his part indeed, is posed as the main hero. GW or whatever more exists, not thanks to the mainstream scientists though.

a reply to: 2012newstart

Lazar was wrong.

Gravity is not A wave. Waves can form upon it, when acted upon by objects and actions which happen within the skein of space and time, but is not, in and of itself, in much the same way as water in a glass has no waves in it, unless something enters the glass, or unless the glass itself is moved.

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: SkepticOverlord

Lazar's "assertions" were well in-line with a fan of hard science fiction.

Man I had no idea about that. It makes a TON of sense though.

I may have to check out this Golden Age hard science fiction. Just finished my first hard science fiction novel (Blindsight by Watts, I think it was anyway) and really enjoyed it.

The first thing many people think about when they consider UFOs it that they must have some way to counter gravity...and friction...which is obvious. This fact is so obvious that even your basic imaginative Sci-Fi writer could expound. If we imagine a bunch of scientists examining the wreckage of a UFO in lab conditions the first and primary considerations are questions about propulsion and anti-gravity.......and the very obvious "elementary Watson" conclusion that the two systems would have to work together.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Hex1an

It is more accurate to say that he knew what everyone else was talking about, and knew it well enough to BS his way through a significant amount of mostly press interviews, and the odd researcher into matters on the fringe.

Which is to say, that he knew how to BS people who did not know science, using modified versions of real theory, gussied up with his own brand of hookum to make them extra interesting to the unread observer. Quintessential snake oil salesmanship.

I don't think he was salesman or "Quintessential"...I imagine the percentage of the "unread observer" in regards to: Ununpentium and Gravity Waves were quite a large number... I don't believe he peddled his story like most would do.
Believe him or not. It's a good story and probably the inspiration the TV show X Files.

I might be a caveman when it comes to physics but even I know Lazar is a little out there.

I've heard about these craft that use 'gravitational waves' and they would not be able to propel a paper plane let alone a UFO, and as far as I know any element over 100 is so unstable that cannot exist for more then a fraction of a second.

From what i've read Lazar is either the worlds greatest genius or he is a good liar.

I'm sorry. But to give that charlatan Lazar even the slightest bit of kudos with regard to anything about gravitational waves would be an insult to physicists around the world who spend they life actually, you know, learning and discovering and changing the world. I don't understand your suggestion Op. The guy was cooking a bullsh*t story and yet you don't think it's conceivable that he maybe opened a physics book to get some ideas on what to say?

G Waves (which is what I think they should be called...much cooler) where predicted and expected and he could have easily found out about them .

Scammers and liars pepper their bullsh*t with truths to make them sound real. That's liars 101.

I can't believe people still talk about this idiot (Lazar)

I've said it countless times before and stick by it, REAL physics and science (except boring chemistry /jk) and astronomy are exciting enough that no one needs to make up any stories. The double slit experiment might sound boring but is absolutely astounding if more people just took an interest to find out . And that's just the surface of the beauty of physics

F*ck Lazar

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord
a reply to: bananasam

My point is, Lazar's "science" predates Lazar.

Ed didn't originate any he says.

I don't think anyone is saying it was Lazar's original work....just that he talked about it publicly way before such knowledge was sanctioned for general release.

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

Neal Stephenson' Anathem is a must read for anyone wanting to get a handle on understanding quantum physics and multiple universe theories, IMO.

Stanton Friedman

Has only an MS in Nuclear Physics and is hardly an expert on anything.

Love Bob Lazar. Interesting guy because his story is so full of weird coincidences and anomalies. It's impossible to just say "Bob is debunked" because stuff like this keeps cropping up. Not only these two "predictions" but also hes prediction of when actual test flights from Area 51 were going to take place, his details of the inside of Area 51 both corroborated. The governments insistence that he never worked at Los Alamos and then proof that he was in their phone directory. There is way too much weird stuff going on around him and his story to just say bunk.

a reply to: 3danimator2014

so... not a fan?

originally posted by: bananasam
The media was celebrating this week about the groundbreaking discovery that gravitational waves are real and not just a theory formed by Einstein in the early 1900's.

30 years ago, Bob Lazar told the press that the propulsion systems he worked on used gravitational waves. It gets more interesting when you realize that he actually insisted they were the correct theory. And also this is the 2nd theory that came true from him after the discovery of Element 115. This one is more amazing though because in some ways you could say Element 115 was inevitable.


Here's an excerpt:

Lazar: There are currently two main theories about gravity. The "wave" theory which states that gravity is a wave and the other is a theory which includes "gravitons", which are alleged sub-atomic particles which perform as gravity, which by the way, is total nonsense.

An excerpt from a person ignorant in wave-particle duality.

Gravitons are the Particle Physics version of gravity waves.

The LIGO findings are waves because that's the way the experiment was set up - to detect waves.

According to your quote, Lazar believes that these are "two different theories."

So, Lazar, for example, would believe that Electromagnetism is "two different theories," since both waves (EM field) and particles (photons) are used to describe electromagnetism.

The guy had no idea what he was talking about.

These two views are separate mathematical ways of analyzing the same phenomena and are in fact the same theory.
It's called General Relativity. Maybe you heard of it.


Harte