$19 TRILLION in Debt - US Debt Clock

originally posted by: Necrose

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Necrose

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Necrose

Yep money can be made out of thin air, or more accurately out of computer memory. Why do you think that this is a bad thing (as a hint it's not, its a very good thing).

please enlighten us all, why is it a good thing then? I am immensely curious

Because money should improve the function of the real economy (good and services) not the economy be constrained by an arbitrary fixed volume of money. The problem with the US economy isn't debt it is un & underemployment, lack of investment in real as opposed to nominal goods and lack of disposable income among low/middle earners. All of these problems require more money not less to resolve.

Sorry mate, but f*ck the US, it's the same everywhere, innit?
So you propose to just keep on...printing money out of thin air forever and ever?? what the hell ?

It's like saying:" I don't have enough money to buy a Ferrari, so I'll snap my fingers and here it is. Now I got a new Ferrari, ain't that a nice car? ... and hey look, son you want a car, I'll snap my fingers and create one for you."

No because Ferraris are real goods. (and you I assume are not an independent nation with your own currency)

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: spirit_horse

originally posted by: ScepticScot

Yep so his it better to be the one with the real steering wheel (the currency issuer) or the one with the plastic one (the owner of the debt)?

Well, you keep saying that as if the government is printing the money and has control of it. It doesn't in the US the Federal Reserve does and it is a private bank. Please enlighten me on why you say the government is in control of the money supply? And BTW, the Federal Reserve said itself it won't be able to bail out another collapse.

The federal reserve is not a private bank, it is an independent central bank which has its powers from the US government.

But the system is not broken mate, it was built this way... if you count all the money/wealth in the world and if you add 'em up it's still not enough to cover the world's debt, it's all a big freakin' nonsense...

debt > all the money on Earth, there is no way outta this, no way.

There is no way avoiding collapse (apocalypse!!), we are only postponing it, edgeing it, milking the system up to the very last nano-second, but then when the hell breaks loose I can only guess what's going to happen next, but the things will get nasty.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Edumakated

Yes but the US isn't a household or anything like one.

True, but it doesn't change the dynamics of the situation. While debt is not inherently bad, the issue is that the debt has to be serviced and the US cannot print it's way out till infinity.

You are right it can't print (obviously not really print but I know what you mean) till infinity but it does not have to. The debt is a nominal amount that can be increased or decreased .

The underlying issues have nothing to do with the debt (which is a symptom).

I think we should have one great big international Jubilee year!! Reset everything.

originally posted by: queenofswords
I think we should have one great big international Jubilee year!! Reset everything.

That day will come my friend and I think you and I will be here to sit back and watch.
Just not today, not today.

a reply to: ScepticScot

The main issue is the path we are on is not sustainable and there is no sign that things are changing for the better - if anything, they are changing for the worse.

Remember all that talk about the debt ceiling last year? Government shut down? This is because those in Washington are living on "borrowed time" and have been doing so for awhile now.

On top of this, every dollar that gets "created" is LOANED to you and me AT INTEREST

Debt to GDP ratio is not a good indicator because GDP includes spending from debt so GDP rises with debt as it did so with Greece before their economy collapsed. A better indicator is debt to tax revenue, US at 408% is third behind Japan (900%) and Greece (475%) Link.

So like Japan, US will continue to print their way out of immediate trouble, kicking the can down the road for the next generation to worry about. That printing results in inflation which is a tax on public wealth. In the past that inflation was exported via the USD to rest of world but that too will be on the nose. Rest of world cannot afford to pay for US excesses. No matter how many bombs US drops to try keep the USD alive.

originally posted by: glend
Debt to GDP ratio is not a good indicator because GDP includes spending from debt so GDP rises with debt as it did so with Greece before their economy collapsed. A better indicator is debt to tax revenue, US at 408% is third behind Japan (900%) and Greece (475%) Link.

So like Japan, US will continue to print their way out of immediate trouble, kicking the can down the road for the next generation to worry about. That printing results in inflation which is a tax on public wealth. In the past that inflation was exported via the USD to rest of world but that too will be on the nose. Rest of world cannot afford to pay for US excesses. No matter how many bombs US drops to try keep the USD alive.

GREAT insights. I couldn't have said it any better...

a reply to: FamCore

thanks

a reply to: Necrose

Just found this webpage with some great info related to what we've been discussing (added to the OP as well)

one-simple-idea.com...

originally posted by: MrSpad
We owe most of that money to ourselves. The government borrowing money from another part of the government. The debt is weird because we do not back it with any assets. So while the US could pay off the debt over night selling small amount of its mineral rights it does not. The debt is sort of one of things that has become a political tool. Is it great to have? No. Is it dooms day? No. We keep extending tax cuts that do a big part of damage. If anybody every starts to take it serious that would end. And you might even see an tax increase, since taxes compared to the boom days of the US economy are tiny now. The US like a guy who has $100,000 debt and over half of which he owes to his wife but, has $5 million in gold bars in his house and only collects a quarter of his pay every year.

"The most popular of these doctrines is crystallized in the phrase: A public debt is no burden because we owe it to ourselves. If this were true, then the wholesale obliteration of the public debt would be an innocuous operation, a mere act of bookkeeping and accountancy. The fact is that the public debt embodies claims of people who have in the past entrusted funds to the government against all those who are daily producing new wealth. It burdens the producing strata for the benefit of another part of the people. It is possible to free the producers of new wealth from this burden by collecting the taxes required for the payments exclusively from the bondholders. But this means undisguised repudiation."

-Ludwig von Mises

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: Iamnotadoctor

Our children will inherit that debt and then some if this isn't dealt with promptly.

And who will they owe this debt to?

Government has no money, ultimately anything it does or promises to do can only be funded by taxing citizens.

originally posted by: Necrose

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: Iamnotadoctor

Our children will inherit that debt and then some if this isn't dealt with promptly.

and their children would inherit their debt and pass on to the next generation...and so on and so forth, it's illogical, the whole thing is a fabricated mess.

Yes, it is the definition of a pyramid scheme.

a reply to: greencmp

It burdens the producing strata for the benefit of another part of the people

That one sentence illustrates this issue very well. The whole quote, even better. Thanks so much!

and yet ScepticScot wants me to believe this is a good thing

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: Iamnotadoctor

Our children will inherit that debt and then some if this isn't dealt with promptly.

And who will they owe this debt to?

Government has no money, ultimately anything it does or promises to do can only be funded by taxing citizens.

Really? Who issues the money?

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: Iamnotadoctor

Our children will inherit that debt and then some if this isn't dealt with promptly.

And who will they owe this debt to?

Government has no money, ultimately anything it does or promises to do can only be funded by taxing citizens.

Really? Who issues the money?

Why not just cut checks for everybody?

When you can answer that question, you will see what I mean.

Let me know when the federal reserve is abolished/outlawed/nuked into oblivion & maybe then I'll care about the actual value of "money" & our national "debt".

Economies are evil.

I say all congressional salaries be cut 50%until such time as they dig us out of the grave they have us in.

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: Iamnotadoctor

Our children will inherit that debt and then some if this isn't dealt with promptly.

And who will they owe this debt to?

Government has no money, ultimately anything it does or promises to do can only be funded by taxing citizens.

Really? Who issues the money?

Why not just cut checks for everybody?

When you can answer that question, you will see what I mean.

Interesting I wasn't really sure what the phrase cut cheques meant and had to check.(no pun intended) Assume its an Americanism (certainly isn't common phrase here) - sorry back on topic.
The fact that there are potential consequences doesn't mean the government cant do it. Taxes are essential but not to raise revenue in the way most people assume.