$19 TRILLION in Debt - US Debt Clock

originally posted by: MrSpad
We owe most of that money to ourselves. The government borrowing money from another part of the government. The debt is weird because we do not back it with any assets. So while the US could pay off the debt over night selling small amount of its mineral rights it does not. The debt is sort of one of things that has become a political tool. Is it great to have? No. Is it dooms day? No. We keep extending tax cuts that do a big part of damage. If anybody every starts to take it serious that would end. And you might even see an tax increase, since taxes compared to the boom days of the US economy are tiny now. The US like a guy who has $100,000 debt and over half of which he owes to his wife but, has $5 million in gold bars in his house and only collects a quarter of his pay every year.

Correct other than that the US government doesn't need to sell of anything, it could (if willing to accept consequences) pay off its debt overnight by moving figures between columns on a computer screen. The reason it doesn't is that having the debt has little consequence for the economy and even some benefits. (strictly speaking running the deficit has the benefits but one follows on from the other).

a reply to: FamCore
Disturbing and yes it pisses me off. Notice the corporate tax revenue compared to income tax and payroll tax. It just looks off to me that they are paying so much less. And when they crash the economy the government is going to see those income numbers crash. I wonder if that is why they have grabbed 1/3 of the US land about the size of Western EU? They can sell it off to other countries they owe.

I don't like much at all coming out of that foreign capital in DC. And they wonder why citizens are acting up. Probably because they have gone bat # crazy. And to think Bernie wants to raise taxes $19.2 Trillion. From who? Watch out for low information voters.

a reply to: FamCore

I still don't get it and I don't think I ever will... there is no way it can be logically explained.
The only possible explanation is this:
They create money out of thin air.

I think I read about it somewhere, roughly around 94% of all the damn money in the world doesn't exist, and thus money itself has no value, it's a concept and the whole thing is a charade, it's a chess game we know we already lost but we keep on playing.
Chuck Prince (CEO of Citi) famously or rather notoriously said: "we have to dance until the music stops." 
Actually the music had stopped already when he said that.

a reply to: FamCore

And why do you think (and I am assuming you do) that having foreign owned debt is a bad thing?

This sums it up pretty succinctly why the debt is so bad... in terms most people can understand. Just dropping a few zeros. Imagine if the US were a household. Numbers based on CBO 2013.

The household income would be $52,000, but we spend $64,000 every year. In order to make up the short fall, we put $12,000 on our credit card despite it already having a balance of $312,000.

In the real world, this household would be bankrupt. They most certainly wouldn't "raise the debt limit"

Oh yeah, all the spending cuts that congress likes to brag about? Amounts to this household cutting about $350/yr.

If US were a Household

It is now literally impossible to ever repay this debt. Its not as though the tax increases would be too difficult to manage. There is NO amount of tax increase that would balance the budget at this point. Americans dont make enough money annually to pay down the debt even if their entire paycheck went toward that goal.

The problem is that people have a hard time understanding figures like billions and trillions. Try looking at is this way...

One million seconds = 12 days
One billion seconds = 31 years
One trillion seconds = 31,000 years

That equates to $33,000 dollars of debt per second 24/7.

And the problem is only going to get worse. The largest financial demographic in the US right now are the baby boomers. They are retiring at an astounding rate right now. That means more people taking money out of the government on a daily basis and not paying income taxes. Thats a double whammy to the economy. Their children are having a hard time finding jobs, which means low income tax revenue. The actual unemployment rate is around 23% right now, not the 5% the government reports. When you add in all the people who are so chronically unemployed they are no longer even being tracked the number is around 23%. More people live in poverty now than ever before in the US. That means record numbers drawing financial aid. Which the government is less and less likely to be able to continue paying.

And none of this takes in to consideration the financial reckoning that is about to take place. Our whole economy is a giant ponzi scheme built on credit. You can not solve a credit problem with more credit. It simply doesnt work. All the key signals for a huge correction are in place at this very moment. And every single one of them is worse today than in 1929, 1999, and 2007. The second real estate bubble hasnt even hit yet. Banks and investors saw a profit potential in the last bubble and bought up thousands of properties. Now the debt crunch is forcing interest rates to drop again. They will actually have to go negative to try to stall a full blown collapse. That means that property values drop drastically and become liabilities. So the sell-off begins and drives values even lower. The reckoning will occur when those who hold the majority of US debt try to collect. There is absolutely no way possible for the US to pay that debt. It simply can not happen. Its just a matter of time.

a reply to: Necrose

Yep money can be made out of thin air, or more accurately out of computer memory. Why do you think that this is a bad thing (as a hint it's not, its a very good thing).

Another thing is this debt clock doesn't show the $232 Trillion in unfunded liabilities. How do they plan on taking care of the obligations especially with the new socialist programs pushed by the left.

And who ever said the government is borrowing from the government needs to read up on the Fed. It is a private central bank, not government owned. They print the money and the government borrows from it at interest. Same as borrowing from China and whoever else is stupid enough to give money to these crack financiers.

a reply to: Edumakated

Yes but the US isn't a household or anything like one.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: FamCore

And why do you think (and I am assuming you do) that having foreign owned debt is a bad thing?

oh, because owning something that doesn't exist in a first place is the same misery as the child trying to control the car sitting next to his father with a plastic steering wheel

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Necrose

Yep money can be made out of thin air, or more accurately out of computer memory. Why do you think that this is a bad thing (as a hint it's not, its a very good thing).

please enlighten us all, why is it a good thing then? I am immensely curious

originally posted by: Necrose

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: FamCore

And why do you think (and I am assuming you do) that having foreign owned debt is a bad thing?

oh, because owning something that doesn't exist in a first place is the same misery as the child trying to control the car sitting next to his father with a plastic steering wheel

Yep so his it better to be the one with the real steering wheel (the currency issuer) or the one with the plastic one (the owner of the debt)?

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Necrose

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: FamCore

And why do you think (and I am assuming you do) that having foreign owned debt is a bad thing?

oh, because owning something that doesn't exist in a first place is the same misery as the child trying to control the car sitting next to his father with a plastic steering wheel

Yep so his it better to be the one with the real steering wheel (the currency issuer) or the one with the plastic one (the owner of the debt)?

I ain't got no clue. Issuing something that I know has no value or owning something that doesn't exist... looks the same to me.

originally posted by: Necrose

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Necrose

Yep money can be made out of thin air, or more accurately out of computer memory. Why do you think that this is a bad thing (as a hint it's not, its a very good thing).

please enlighten us all, why is it a good thing then? I am immensely curious

Because money should improve the function of the real economy (good and services) not the economy be constrained by an arbitrary fixed volume of money. The problem with the US economy isn't debt it is un & underemployment, lack of investment in real as opposed to nominal goods and lack of disposable income among low/middle earners. All of these problems require more money not less to resolve.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

Yep so his it better to be the one with the real steering wheel (the currency issuer) or the one with the plastic one (the owner of the debt)?

Well, you keep saying that as if the government is printing the money and has control of it. It doesn't in the US the Federal Reserve does and it is a private bank. Please enlighten me on why you say the government is in control of the money supply? And BTW, the Federal Reserve said itself it won't be able to bail out another collapse.

originally posted by: Necrose

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Necrose

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: FamCore

And why do you think (and I am assuming you do) that having foreign owned debt is a bad thing?

oh, because owning something that doesn't exist in a first place is the same misery as the child trying to control the car sitting next to his father with a plastic steering wheel

Yep so his it better to be the one with the real steering wheel (the currency issuer) or the one with the plastic one (the owner of the debt)?

I ain't got no clue. Issuing something that I know has no value or owning something that doesn't exist... looks the same to me.

If you go to the shop with the money in your pocket can you buy goods with it? Money has a value to individuals.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Edumakated

Yes but the US isn't a household or anything like one.

True, but it doesn't change the dynamics of the situation. While debt is not inherently bad, the issue is that the debt has to be serviced and the US cannot print it's way out till infinity.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Necrose

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Necrose

Yep money can be made out of thin air, or more accurately out of computer memory. Why do you think that this is a bad thing (as a hint it's not, its a very good thing).

please enlighten us all, why is it a good thing then? I am immensely curious

Because money should improve the function of the real economy (good and services) not the economy be constrained by an arbitrary fixed volume of money. The problem with the US economy isn't debt it is un & underemployment, lack of investment in real as opposed to nominal goods and lack of disposable income among low/middle earners. All of these problems require more money not less to resolve.

Sorry mate, but f*ck the US, it's the same everywhere, innit?
So you propose to just keep on...printing money out of thin air forever and ever?? what the hell ?

It's like saying:" I don't have enough money to buy a Ferrari, so I'll snap my fingers and here it is. Now I got a new Ferrari, ain't that a nice car? ... and hey look, son you want a car, I'll snap my fingers and create one for you."

originally posted by: spirit_horse

originally posted by: ScepticScot

Yep so his it better to be the one with the real steering wheel (the currency issuer) or the one with the plastic one (the owner of the debt)?

Well, you keep saying that as if the government is printing the money and has control of it. It doesn't in the US the Federal Reserve does and it is a private bank. Please enlighten me on why you say the government is in control of the money supply? And BTW, the Federal Reserve said itself it won't be able to bail out another collapse.

The federal reserve is not a private bank, it is an independent central bank which has its powers from the US government.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Necrose

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Necrose

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: FamCore

And why do you think (and I am assuming you do) that having foreign owned debt is a bad thing?

oh, because owning something that doesn't exist in a first place is the same misery as the child trying to control the car sitting next to his father with a plastic steering wheel

Yep so his it better to be the one with the real steering wheel (the currency issuer) or the one with the plastic one (the owner of the debt)?

I ain't got no clue. Issuing something that I know has no value or owning something that doesn't exist... looks the same to me.

If you go to the shop with the money in your pocket can you buy goods with it? Money has a value to individuals.

for now, maybe, but...jesus, if people really figured out how the banking system works we would have a revolution before tomorrow morning... and I know that ain't gonna happen, still what you are saying makes NO sense long-term.