After Living in Norway, America Feels Backward. Here’s Why.

originally posted by: BrianFlanders
I say we put all socialists in prison and feed them and give them a roof over their heads so they'll stop complaining and deliberately sabotaging everything that isn't socialist. They can have all their basic living necessities taken care of and they can get up close and personal with the concept of the gulag.

Imprison all the socialists, that sounds vaguely familiar from somewhere. Any other groups you want to include in your solution.....

a reply to: onequestion

I just clicked in here on the verge of a hostile rant because of all the rhetoric some of my anti-Sanders FB friends (who I otherwise like) keep putting up about social democracy.

The most utterly ridiculous lies and bs! I can watch it for a while in silence, and just feel compassion and sympathy for my american loved ones who are living in a hell hole of corruption as slaves without any idea at all.... just swallowing the propaganda fed to them, about how they live in heaven and everywhere else in the world they'd be worse off...


But every once in a while it builds up and I want to explode.
And here too, I'll get all these ignorant come backs about social democracy being responsible for millions of deaths , poverty and repression in all the forms it has ever existed on earth.... I just want to scream pull your head out your ass, get up and travel a bit and WAKE UP!!!!

a reply to: Bluesma

People are dillusional, fixating on words.

A social democracy is defined by how we choose to implement it.

Everyone is stuck with a set of ideas that's out dated and unevolved. We are in a new integrated and technologically advanced world and we need to stop acting like monkeys fighting over bananas.

originally posted by: xuenchen
Norway.

5 million people

1 million in largest city

many small cities 50,000

poverty 9%

unemployment 5%

25% GDP fossil fuel

National Debt $55 billion (10,000 per citizen)

Poverty in Norway is defined much more widely in Norway than the US.

Unemployment is now about 4% (lower than the US).

Norway also has a national wealth fund that dwarfs its debt (so not really in debt at all)

You are right about the Oil (or to be more exact the clever investment of oil proceeds) which is the main reason why it is in such a good position.

a reply to: onequestion

I see what you are saying except I don't think it addresses the change to our lives that is rushing at us from our blind side.

I've been reading that soon most of our workforce will be replaced by yet more technology and especially robots. These will replace a great deal of humans in the work place for all the obvious reasons I don't need to repeat.

I don't think, all the time we focus on the hours worked here or there, even the lack of jobs that we are even looking in the right direction for the future working world as we know it.

What exactly are all the people going to do when firms bring in this new technology that is supposedly about to walk through our front doors - what plans do our governments have to deal with what will probably be the bigger unemployed crisis the world has ever faced?

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: BrianFlanders
I say we put all socialists in prison and feed them and give them a roof over their heads so they'll stop complaining and deliberately sabotaging everything that isn't socialist. They can have all their basic living necessities taken care of and they can get up close and personal with the concept of the gulag.

Imprison all the socialists, that sounds vaguely familiar from somewhere. Any other groups you want to include in your solution.....

It was actually a joke. Because yes. It does sound very familiar. The Nazis weren't the only ones who put people who disagreed with them in prison camps. Like I said. If the left is feeling nostalgic for the good old socialist days a prison camp is the perfect place to be. As long as you follow orders and don't ask questions you get free everything in prison. All you have to do is live in chains.

What I was suggesting is that this is exactly what the socialists want to do with people who disagree with them. They simply cannot have what they want if they allow people to refuse to cooperate. So if they should succeed, people who disagree with them will essentially be in prison. There are only a few ways that are 100% effective to force people to conform. And socialists have done them all.

The "But it works in Norway!" thing will eventually come down like a house of cards because guess what? Regardless of what's happening there right now or has happened in the past, when you've got socialism (or any top-heavy government, for that matter) you have all of the essential infrastructure for totalitarianism. All it takes is time and gravity.

originally posted by: onequestion
Interesting little article for those of you who realize we need to start making a lot of changes to this country and the world in general.

billmoyers.com...

It’s true that they didn’t work much, not by American standards anyway. In the US, full-time salaried workers supposedly laboring 40 hours a week actually average 49, with almost 20 percent clocking more than 60. These people, on the other hand, worked only about 37 hours a week, when they weren’t away on long paid vacations. At the end of the work day, about four in the afternoon (perhaps three in the summer), they had time to enjoy a hike in the forest or a swim with the kids or a beer with friends — which helps explain why, unlike so many Americans, they are pleased with their jobs.

Considering that half or more of our work in population makes less than 30k a year I can see why so many people are willing to vote for Trump.

Where I live now, in the Homeland, there are not enough shelters for the homeless. Most people are either overworked or hurting for jobs; housing is overpriced; hospitals, crowded and understaffed; schools, largely segregated and not so good. Opioid or heroin overdose is a popular form of death; and men in the street threaten women wearing hijab. Did the American soldiers I covered in Afghanistan know they were fighting for this?

When you put it that way.... Well crap.

After reading the article I have to think, are we really here to just work hard for the man or are we meant for something more and how do we better align ourselves with those goals?

I mean what good is all of this technology if we're not going to use it with wisdom.

I heard someone say once that facts don't equal wisdom and I notice a lot of people with a lot of facts these days.

If I'm remembering correctly doesn't Norway's workforce, among other European countries, go on vacation for the whole month of August?

Lol @ America, land of the free.

originally posted by: Flesh699

originally posted by: onequestion
Interesting little article for those of you who realize we need to start making a lot of changes to this country and the world in general.

billmoyers.com...

It’s true that they didn’t work much, not by American standards anyway. In the US, full-time salaried workers supposedly laboring 40 hours a week actually average 49, with almost 20 percent clocking more than 60. These people, on the other hand, worked only about 37 hours a week, when they weren’t away on long paid vacations. At the end of the work day, about four in the afternoon (perhaps three in the summer), they had time to enjoy a hike in the forest or a swim with the kids or a beer with friends — which helps explain why, unlike so many Americans, they are pleased with their jobs.

Considering that half or more of our work in population makes less than 30k a year I can see why so many people are willing to vote for Trump.

Where I live now, in the Homeland, there are not enough shelters for the homeless. Most people are either overworked or hurting for jobs; housing is overpriced; hospitals, crowded and understaffed; schools, largely segregated and not so good. Opioid or heroin overdose is a popular form of death; and men in the street threaten women wearing hijab. Did the American soldiers I covered in Afghanistan know they were fighting for this?

When you put it that way.... Well crap.

After reading the article I have to think, are we really here to just work hard for the man or are we meant for something more and how do we better align ourselves with those goals?

I mean what good is all of this technology if we're not going to use it with wisdom.

I heard someone say once that facts don't equal wisdom and I notice a lot of people with a lot of facts these days.

If I'm remembering correctly doesn't Norway's workforce, among other European countries, go on vacation for the whole month of August?

Lol @ America, land of the free.

No, it's usually 3 to 4 weeks in July. But this is not most of the workforce. I would say it's about 1/3 of the workforce.

By law we get 4 weeks of paid vacation. If there is a union, then you get 5 weeks of paid vacation. The money you get for the vacations is by law 10.2 % of what you have made. If there is a union, then you get 12 % of what you have made.
In addition, people over 62 gets by law 5 weeks vacation (6 if there is a union).

One week is 5 days both by law and if there is a union.

a reply to: onequestion

WHY are you working 60 hours a week? That's absolutely ridiculous.

I think you're first error was believing in the system. You've always been told that you have to go to school, get good grades, go to college, so you can get a good job, then you need to work super hard for someone else because that's how you become successful.

what a load of nonsense. there are so many opportunities out there that people don't take advantage of because 1. they were not told that it was possible for them, and 2. because of complacency.

Real estate, entrepreneurship, passive income, investing - these are all concepts that are out there but people won't take advantage of because they don't know about it or are afraid. I know a woman who sells yoga dvd's that now works on her own time while traveling the world.

I've changed my mindset last year. I was tired of working long hours, quit my job, started my own business, and completed my first real estate transaction (other than purchasing my home).

Was it scary? Yes. Did I know what I was doing? I still don't. But guess what, I work when I want, I'm super motivated to grow, and I'm actually making a little more money than I did while employed.

People do need to wake up, wake up to the opportunity that's all around them. But if we just want to be a complacent society, happy with a 9-5 and watching football, go on a vacation every now and then, then you're going to get what you deserve.

Sure there are evil corporations and evil politicians, guess what there always will be! But none of them have held me back so far.

I understand it's tough for some people, but you can make a change, even if it's just in mindset. And pass it on to your kids.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: theantediluvian

Good point.

Technology is quickly replacing the need for a human workforce, so what do we do?

Become a technology provider!

I'm a semi-retired software architect/engineer. Technology will never replace me or the need for more just like me.

originally posted by: Restricted
As an American I recognize our country has a big problem with greed. It's embarrassing really.

I'm at a loss as to how to change the materialistic attitudes that prevail in a Capitalist country. Technically, our country is sort of functioning as it was designed to do. We've perverted it though.

Without a majority rejecting materialism - I gotta have that boat, jet ski, flat-screen, computer, et all, ad nauseum , ad infinitum - nothing will change for the better.

Rites of passage have been replaced with material goals. Nowadays, you do not need to work hard, gain qualifications or any other personal achievement; you can have it all now!! On the nevernever! And that is a good thing because soon, it won't matter how skilled you are, you will never earn enough to enjoy these things whilst you still can!

originally posted by: tanka418

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: theantediluvian

Good point.

Technology is quickly replacing the need for a human workforce, so what do we do?

Become a technology provider!

I'm a semi-retired software architect/engineer. Technology will never replace me or the need for more just like me.

Don't know if you have seen this going on in Texas but in the UK, Barclays Bank have been promoting free educational and training opportunities for anyone, including children, to learn code.

Soon, there will be many with your skills and your salary will come done.



Lots of mechanisms driving down wages happening all over the western world. Soon, only the well connected or the truly gifted will be able to achieve comfortable living without debt.

Changing attitudes so people become less materialistic? Got to change attitudes toward debt first. I think my grandparents generation had it right; debt was a source of shame, something that only happened to losers. The only debt most saw as acceptable was a mortgage.

a reply to: onequestion

Since I will probably return to Norway, I find this very interesting. For a person who thinks like an US American, Norway is an impossibly expensive nation. Should you think like Bernie Sanders it can be a very happy fit for those who can work there.

I wonder if the answer for the bankster plague would be in something like an international treaty that makes it a crime to hold personal wealth or corporate wealth greater than a certain percentage of the world's poorest citizens' combined wealth.

originally posted by: onequestion
Considering that half or more of our work in population makes less than 30k a year I can see why so many people are willing to vote for Trump.

Not to get all political, but Trump has no plan to deal with this. Trump sleeps 3 hours a night and works 18 hours a day. He has a rule that anyone working for him directly isn't allowed to sleep for more than 4 hours, and schedules them such that it's the case. In his logic, how can someone working a mere 8 hours a day ever compete with someone who works for 18? He is quite famous for this actually.

If anything he favors longer work days. That is what he has pushed for from his employees his entire life.

For someone like me who doesn't believe in working for someone else more than 25 hours per week (though I see no problem if you're working for yourself on things you want to do) there's a pretty big disagreement between me and a guy who wants someone to work 16+ hours a day 7 days a week.

I mean what good is all of this technology if we're not going to use it with wisdom.

The point of technology is to make life easier. The problem is that technology and capitalism are mutually exclusive concepts. The ultimate goal of technology is to reduce the number of hours a society needs to work, but capitalism rewards people for putting in more hours. It's an ever shrinking pie that requires each person to maintain their share.

The solution is to reduce the work week such that everyone is working less, but there's a lot of pushback from that. The people who work 10 hour days don't want to work 7 because that represents a 30% drop in their income.

originally posted by: teapot
Don't know if you have seen this going on in Texas but in the UK, Barclays Bank have been promoting free educational and training opportunities for anyone, including children, to learn code.

Soon, there will be many with your skills and your salary will come done.

I'm in the same field as that person, though I focus on games rather than business software. The coding field is already over saturated. India seriously overproduced the degrees and when they ran out of jobs they all started coming to the US and UK. India has more top 1% in Computer Science than the US and UK have total graduates.

Fortunately, there's a lot more to it than knowing how to code so all of the learn to code programs don't really impact salaries. What does impact it is the massive over production of Computer Science and Software Engineering degrees, but the damage from that is already done, salaries won't go down that much further. Instead people with the degrees just don't work in their field.


Lots of mechanisms driving down wages happening all over the western world. Soon, only the well connected or the truly gifted will be able to achieve comfortable living without debt.

Changing attitudes so people become less materialistic? Got to change attitudes toward debt first. I think my grandparents generation had it right; debt was a source of shame, something that only happened to losers. The only debt most saw as acceptable was a mortgage.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: nwtrucker

I should've known that someone was going to make a comment like that.

I work over 60 hours a week and I want the American workforce to experience better conditions.

I won't be responding to anymore posts of similar content and I will not be responding to you unless your addressing anything in the OP other than me.

How about you worry about you and do whats best for you and allow others to do the same. I'm quite pleased with my life in America (less so over the last 8 years compared with the previous 20) and don't need you trying to force me into some lifestyle you like. It seems there is already a country that has what you want, how about you head on over there and enjoy their bounties?

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: onequestion
Considering that half or more of our work in population makes less than 30k a year I can see why so many people are willing to vote for Trump.

Not to get all political, but Trump has no plan to deal with this. Trump sleeps 3 hours a night and works 18 hours a day. He has a rule that anyone working for him directly isn't allowed to sleep for more than 4 hours, and schedules them such that it's the case. In his logic, how can someone working a mere 8 hours a day ever compete with someone who works for 18? He is quite famous for this actually.

If anything he favors longer work days. That is what he has pushed for from his employees his entire life.

For someone like me who doesn't believe in working for someone else more than 25 hours per week (though I see no problem if you're working for yourself on things you want to do) there's a pretty big disagreement between me and a guy who wants someone to work 16+ hours a day 7 days a week.

I mean what good is all of this technology if we're not going to use it with wisdom.

The ultimate goal of technology is to reduce the number of hours a society needs to work...

You have no understanding of technology. At all. The purpose of technology is not to reduce hours of work done in a society. (side note: while you can accomplish more work in fewer hours you're operating under a fixed pie of work, technology creates new work) That's your dream for technology. You want technology to provide for you , and eventually it very well could. But you would still be unhappy with it because while you may be able to eat, drink, and be sheltered for close to zero cost, there will be new great things to do with technology that you will not be able to afford.

It's really a simple concept. when you don't work and others do, others will have more than you! It even rhymes! It doesn't matter if it was a 1000 years ago or if it is 1000 years from now. Those who are capable and willing to work to provide goods or services desired by others will always be a step ahead of those who are not capable or willing. There is absolutely nothing you can do to change that.


To further this line of thought: it makes sense why the left discourages work, because if some are willing to work, others will be envious of what those who worked have obtained. This could spur more people to work. Greed and envy propel advancement. If you don't want to work for the man, head up to alaska and homestead. you can get free land, build your own house with the things on that land, farm the land for food, etc... oh wait, that's work. Dang it all!

originally posted by: Restricted
As an American I recognize our country has a big problem with greed. It's embarrassing really.

I'm at a loss as to how to change the materialistic attitudes that prevail in a Capitalist country. Technically, our country is sort of functioning as it was designed to do. We've perverted it though.

Without a majority rejecting materialism - I gotta have that boat, jet ski, flat-screen, computer, et all, ad nauseum , ad infinitum - nothing will change for the better.

Personally, I'd forego what little I own and pay higher taxes to have true national health care like Scandinavia or France or Canada, but then I'm in poor health and this is a selfish desire.

Mea culpa.

Your post reminded me of this video:
www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: teapot

Don't know if you have seen this going on in Texas but in the UK, Barclays Bank have been promoting free educational and training opportunities for anyone, including children, to learn code.

Soon, there will be many with your skills and your salary will come done.

Yes, I know, however the number of applications will grow faster than the supply of engineers to create solutions. This "cycle" will never end, and software, to make machines do what is wanted, will always be in demand.

So, we will need all of the talented engineers that can be provided...

a reply to: theantediluvian

a reply to: onequestion

It is part of the American culture to work. It is also part of the South Korean culture to work. It is likely no accident that those two cultures tend to produce at much higher rates than the one you think we should be more like.

If you don't want to work like an American, than move to Norway.