After Living in Norway, America Feels Backward. Here’s Why.

a reply to: Philippines

No, I wouldn't think so, as capitalism is designed to reward ingenuity, hard work, and dedication.

Actually, I think it's the decline of capitalism and the rise of the welfare state that is corrupting the personal drive and motivation while propagating apathy in our country.

B..b..b..b..but America has Freedom and Ameritude and it's colours dont run and.... and... and it has Ameritude and American pride and it deals from strength or you get crushed every time..

America has it's faults, but gimme Van Halen over Aha any day of the week.

Ok, maybe not Van Halen as two of the four were Dutch, but the nation that brings us Death and destruction on a industrial scale has also given us some of the greatest music of all time.

USA..over there..Ameritude and The Grateful Dead and The Ramones.. Hoorah

a reply to: onequestion


God bless America - get rich, screw everyone else and look out for yourself.
Low taxes and no taxes for the rich and stab your colleague in the back to get ahead.
We have it so wrong here that it's just not even funny - but anything else like community, looking out for the poor and hitting the wealthiest hardest is just wrong and un-American and like socialism or them damn evil commies.

Rugged Individualism.

*rolls eyes*

Honestly - you have to just despair how we ever got to this point.
Selfish, cold, hard and insular.

originally posted by: flice
And even though I only earn 50.000 dollars a year before tax, just like in Norway and Sweden, I don't have to ever worry about medical bills, school payments etc etc. All is taken care off.

No no no.

See, you do have to worry about it, and it's not all taken care of. If medical costs start rising, the taxes that you pay will go up in order to compensate, or the government will limit the availability of procedures and care to lower the cost--or cut jobs in the medical field, or whatever. The point is, though, is that you do have to worry about them, and changes in the cost of medical care will have a direct effect on the individual.

See, my problem is this--I have asthma. I get my inhalers paid for by the U.S. government because choosing to serve in the military caused my asthma to need daily medicine in order to be controlled as best as possible. So you know what my medical experience is each year? One regular check up and a renewal of a prescription of a medication that I would gladly pay for out of pocket.

But in a socialized-healthcare world, I'd be paying hundreds of dollars per month in order for that someone else who doesn't take care of themselves and have preventable issues like obesity and all of the health issues that come with it. I'm a very nice guy in daily life (maybe less so on ATS because I cut through all the crap when I speak), but I fail to see how taking my earned income to pay for others' care is a grand idea. I just don't--call it selfish, or just logical, but I don't.

However, I don't mind things like Medicare and Medicaid, IF (and that's a really big if) they are run correctly and responsibly. But they're not, so I have my issues with those programs as well, but I do acknowledge that, at some level, they are necessary.

School is another story altogether, as many who go beyond high school here aren't really cut out for the collegiate or university systems--making it "free" (there's that inappropriately used word again) would only encourage those who don't have the drive or desire to make the most out of the education to half-assedly attend, wasting money.

I think that's my biggest problem with socialized programs--there's always such a high percentage of waste and mismanagement.

You want to know what sets Norway (or nordic countries) apart from the US? I honestly think we care more about each other, than constantly trying to best our neighbour.

You can think that all that you want, but unless you've ever lived here in America (I don't know if you have or haven't), you'd probably sing a different tune, or at least change your assumed view of how competitive we are in our daily lives with everyone around us.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Every other civilized first world country has socialized or universal healthcare and they all manage and people don't "pay out hundreds of dollars a month" extra. They have no less a disposable income than any other nation.
But sure - it's all about you not paying for the fat guy or the alcoholic or the fella who made poor life choices!!

Rah rah - me me me.

Whatever.

a reply to: stargatetravels

Don't get all sad over my opinion--sheesh.

I'm glad you're happy with your system. Honestly, I can't stand ours, but it's not because it's not socialized, it's because I'm now forced to have coverage, even if I don't want to or need to.

But, yes, when it comes to me and my family, I'm am concerned with our wellbeing first and foremost, and that of course means our financial future. Color me crazy, but I'd have to say one would be an idiot not to be concerned about that. I prefer to earn my own way into retirement and reap the benefits of my decision--whether or not they end up being good or bad, because I certainly know I've made a few bad fiscal decisions in the past.

It's okay for you to be content in your world of socialized this or that, and quite honestly, I don't care what other countries around the world are doing when it comes to healthcare, because for everyone like you who rides the wave of socialized medicine as if you're on a mythical unicorn leaving rainbows in your path, there are those who despise living under such a system. Most everyone else, in America or otherwise, are just content because it's the way it's always been, no matter what system they are under.

So if you want to think that you know my character as a human being just because I don't like the idea of having to subsidize apathetic people who make me pay more for government-mandated health insurance, that's fine--but you don't know me at all, so keep your assumptions to yourself and try to stay on topic, because trailing off into ad hominem attacks is a pretty poor way to discuss differing opinions.

originally posted by: stargatetravels
a reply to: onequestion


God bless America - get rich, screw everyone else and look out for yourself.
Low taxes and no taxes for the rich and stab your colleague in the back to get ahead.
We have some of the highest corporate taxes in the world. The rich/megacorps don't pay taxes they go offshore or pass it down to the consumers.
We have it so wrong here that it's just not even funny - but anything else like community, looking out for the poor and hitting the wealthiest hardest is just wrong and un-American and like socialism or them damn evil commies.
Pure indivdualism is not an ideal nor is pure collectivism. Both have their pro's and cons.
Rugged Individualism.
Look at Apple,Microsoft,Facebook,Mark Cuban, George Foreman,Ford,Jay Z,Oprah and...ATS
*rolls eyes*

Honestly - you have to just despair how we ever got to this point.
Selfish, cold, hard and insular.

What is great about the USA is that if you have a good idea/product/service you can make a massive amount of money. The culture here supports it and actively promotes it.

www.fastupfront.com...

If your poor you can dramatically change your income level if you can produce goods and/or services that is in demand.

A lot of countries don't support that and are top heavy(old guard keeping new competitors from entering the market with new sometimes better ideas) with high entry level costs(pro-megacorp regulation, laws that protect or help the big boys and not the small upstart).

originally posted by: 0bserver1
That may be true, but the prices of those prefab houses are really high and in some cases more expensive then the tratidional builded houses.

3d printing is still rather new. As time goes on the technology will get cheaper. The main thing holding it back right now from a materials point of view is that we need to create better things to print out of. China is using printers that print concrete which is a good step in the right direction.

Anyway its not on how fast buildings can be build and how many people are needed to build such a house .

I agree that speed isn't really a concern, but how many hours total go into building a house is a big issue. If a house takes ~4000 hours traditionally (just a guess on my part, 40 hour weeks, 6 weeks to build, 16 person crew) but it only takes 500 using 3d printing, it only requires 1/8 the manpower to construct which means 1/8 fewer jobs in that sector and fewer jobs in society overall as you're not getting 3500 hours back per house in the people who build/maintain the machines and in increased demand.

originally posted by: pompel9
It all depends what retail we are talking about. Food retail is usually open for 10-15 hours a day. While specialized retails such as hardware and electric is open for about 7-10 hours a day.
The retails that have long opening hours has two shifts.

Hope that helps answer you questions. Please feel free to ask if you are wondering about more.

I don't think that sounds too bad, I live in an area of the US where everything shuts down by 9 or 10, by those standards even that is late. One thing you have to keep in mind is that the US is a 24 hour culture. People like being able to order a pizza at 1 am, or run to the pharmacy for cold medication at 3 in the morning, or if they have an early day know they can still hit up a coffee shop at 5:30. We also like to go places in the evening (bars, restaurants, shopping, etc) as a way to unwind.

While I think the reduced work week could definitely work in the US there's no way the store hours would, we just have a very different culture in that regard.

originally posted by: dismanrc
Don't forget that the US has been paying fo its defense for over 50 years, anlong with the rest of Europe.

Neat what you can do with a small population and when one of your biggest expenses get pond off on someone else.

Switzerland pays for it's defense (they even give an automatic weapon to every single citizen, along with training in guerrilla warfare) and they're doing pretty damn good.

France and the UK have respectable defensive armies and won't be toppled by anyone any time soon.

Most of Europe is actually doing just fine on the defense front. The difference is that in the US defense means offense. We have a power projection capability that no other nation has and we are very proactive in using it... that's not really defense but it's certainly a form of power.

a reply to: Aazadan

All the more reason to reasonably compensate our delivery drivers, baristas, & store clerks.

No we'd rather have class warfare & enormous wage disparity so that we can feel better than others, or hope to one day feel better than others.

a reply to: Aazadan

What is to stop a an imperialist country from taking over europe or africa or asia?

Who will stop ISIS from expanding and taking over europe,africa and the middle east?

originally posted by: Esoterotica
a reply to: Aazadan

All the more reason to reasonably compensate our delivery drivers, baristas, & store clerks.

No we'd rather have class warfare & enormous wage disparity so that we can feel better than others, or hope to one day feel better than others.

It's a psychological need in any wage competitive society, everyone needs a segment of the population they can look at and see themselves doing better than. Humans like hierarchical structures with some people clearly doing better or worse than others. Shrinking the wage gaps would be great, and would still maintain this, but many people would see their current position get worse and are against it as a result (many others would see their position improve, but we can ignore them because who cares about the poor?)

originally posted by: John_Rodger_Cornman
a reply to: Aazadan

What is to stop a an imperialist country from taking over europe or africa or asia?

Who will stop ISIS from expanding and taking over europe,africa and the middle east?

Well, if the US didn't go toppling regimes ISIS never would have taken hold. When you dismantle the power structure in an area the natural consequence is that groups like ISIS will pop up. The same thing would happen in the US if our government were taken out. What would stop an imperialist country from taking over another is a coalition. It's much easier to defend than to attack. The US attacks while the rest of the world aside from Russia focuses on defense, and even Russia is mainly just focused on getting some buffer states back because they are extremely vulnerable from a geographic point of view so it's required for defense.

The best way to deal with ISIS at this point is to attack them financially, and let things run their course. The more we get involved the worse things become. ISIS is a direct result of our actions in Iraq and Syria, taking more action will exacerbate the problem.

a reply to: BrianFlanders

People are still rambling random anti socialist nonsense in this day and age? That's quite amazing. Do you know what socialism entails? Do you think socialism is the problem facing America?

Lmao we lose more and more with each growing day as the COMMON POPULACE and yet all I hear is 'damn Muslims, damn Jews, damn Christians, damn Atheists, damn Socialists, damn Capitalists, damn EVERYTHING'. Is my mind really meant to process another potential 60 years of this utter nonsense?

There's a very simple problem permeating throughout the entirety of modern civilisation and it's that humans are no longer involved in the process of directly reaping the benefits of their work, and therefore by natural mechanisms become disengaged, stressed and depressed.

We are NOT designed to wake up to an artificial alarm every morning and rush away to a place at a time not chosen by us, to do tasks unrelated to our natural desires (in most cases) and to then reap the reward through an indirect process of another human authorising your right to live (through the ability to buy food for example).

This could not be more different and artificial when compared to the natural evolution of the human as a tribal hunter gatherer unit, or even our latter role as farmers and settlers.

Now of course - this harmony was bound to be broken by the increased discovery of technology and the exponential growth of the human populace - resulting in effectively one long dark age since the establishment of technological aware civilisations ruled by Kingship denoted through bloodline alone. We are only now finally becoming able to see that we've lived as slaves (essentially - the illusion is only upheld originally by the allowance of actual slaves for slaves - a concept glorified in all early civilizations) for others for almost 5,000 years, and it's wrecking havoc on the minds and psyches of today's people.

We shouldn't forget to include that our lack of empathy for those that are different to us in some fundamental manner (whether it be appearance or speech) has played a strong role in the equation outlined above as well, but this is a problem that is naturally erased through the continuing integration and mixing of multiple races and cultures. The only thing that tends to get in the way of this (other than a simple physical inability to feel compassion in any situation for a certain subset - evil) is a paradigm enforced by a group detached from the subjects in some fundamental manner - such as religion.

Up until we had such a strong understanding of history, it's very important to note that humans would see their immediate environment as 'what it's always been and always will be'. This is how things like child labour in brutal conditions was once accepted by the common populace as a standard practice - yet (as with the religion example presented earlier) this can only work to a negative effect against the common populace when conducted through a system or paradigm enforced by a group or power ultimately detached from the remainder of the populace.

We have to now recognize that this system is benefiting a shockingly small amount of people, and as the common populace we HAVE to dream in regards to how much easier we can make our lives through a methodological system of altering and creating universal laws that limit the allowable rate of economic production for the world and reach a universal balance of worked time to free time, and an acceptable standard of living that comes with this.

That process itself has to be supported by the implementation of automation technology and the combination of systems of economy to eliminate the idea of international 'competition'. We also need to consider the 'powers' that aim to purposely stop this beneficial integration for the majority of humanity (to sustain their own great relative access to wealth) through the enforcement of ideologies that ultimately aim to divide us.

People see these ideas as 'weak' or idealistic, and say it's the ramblings of a slacker. These people I fear are the most lost, for they are so proud of the fact that they sacrifice the majority of their lives to make another rich, and yet in return only receive minor relative wealth in respect to those around them, that they cannot compute the situation in any other way than to see the latter as an 'inferior'. It is very much the case of the plantation owner's favourite slave beating and lashing out at the other slaves they once saw as equal brothers.

We live in a system where your HAPPINESS, and hence the direct value of your life, is only held in regard if it can make ANOTHER PERSON even happier. We have done for many of thousands of years. We need to re-evaluate this notion in the everyday workings of the human system, and consider a reform of the psyche combined with a logical paradigm of shared work, and a sustained ability for those to pursue higher intellect if needed - all provided in exchange for a 'currency' that would purely serve to extend your life beyond its basic needs rather than simply provide them (as it stands for the majority of the world).

We will not see such a beautiful world for a long time but we MUST first reassess the way we've come to think after 5,000 years of being swept up in the system of modern civilization - and really ask ourselves if this is healthy for our future children? Just like past civilizations have identified faults and pushed society one step closer to today, we must continue to do the same for the better future of tomorrow, and that means not getting entirely swept up in the ocean of modern life and it's growing rate of artificial consumerism (yet worsening living conditions relative to hours worked) but realise that humans finally have the technology to unburden themselves of even having to work for their food in the first place.

This should be the primary goal of the human race as a collective, yet we've fallen into the age old trap of frantically competing with each other to earn more or less scraps based on short term personal actions rather than encouraging and working towards long term collective actions that will allow the great distribution of food (and so on) to ALL. This will not dull society but in fact reawaken the natural love and desire the human has for creation and shared experience - and this could ultimately flourish in a manner never seen before.

Humans have the power of Gods relative to this Earth and it's other inhabitants - when our hearts and minds align in the right manner. We need to use that knowledge and create a Heaven not a Hell.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey



But in a socialized-healthcare world, I'd be paying hundreds of dollars per month in order for that someone else who doesn't take care of themselves and have preventable issues like obesity and all of the health issues that come with it. ... I fail to see how taking my earned income to pay for others' care is a grand idea. I just don't--call it selfish, or just logical, but I don't.

However, I don't mind things like Medicare and Medicaid, IF (and that's a really big if) they are run correctly and responsibly.

I am a little confused - with medicare and medicaid, not everyone is eligible for that - so you (or I) would be paying for someone else, getting nothing ourselves for our money.
With this kind of medical coverage, your money would be getting your care. Maybe that other guy is paying for you one month, and you're paying for him another month, whatever way you want to imagine it. But YOU get something for your money.

You actually feel it more fair and logical that you pay for others on medicare and medicaid, and get nothing yourself?
(Or are you eligible for those programs?)

You can think that all that you want, but unless you've ever lived here in America (I don't know if you have or haven't), you'd probably sing a different tune, or at least change your assumed view of how competitive we are in our daily lives with everyone around us.

I have lived in the US for 24 years, and I agreed with that posters observation.
Have you lived in one of these european countries with this sort of system and culture?
I feel like I never had any idea what solidarity and social conscience even was before I came here. (though I thought I did).
The people here would not even dare to consider that the health of their fellow countrymen is no concern of theirs individually.

They never ever say they have "free" healthcare or education - they are very clear at all times that they pay each month for their healthcare and education - which is partly why they have no qualms about going on strike or protest and influencing things! Because they figure - I pay, that means I get to decide! The government works for me, they are my servant. They stick together for that reason.
If some sector decides to protest, and they stop up the entire country for days, it is a pain, but everyone supports them and puts up without complaining. The first few times that happened (it gets serious sometimes! No gas, no food in stores, etc.) I couldn't understand why nobody got mad - what do we care about these other peoples complaints??

Everyone I spoke to frowned at me and acted like I am egotistical and selfish, (and stupid). They all repeated one sentence-
"We need to keep solidarity."

They understand something we do not, about keeping our power as a people, in relation to our government.
But we're a young nation in contrast, and so maybe that is as it should be. We're still growing up.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

My apparant need? Well if you actually would have read the article you might have read that he mentions Sanders throughout.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
a reply to: Philippines

No, I wouldn't think so, as capitalism is designed to reward ingenuity, hard work, and dedication.

Actually, I think it's the decline of capitalism and the rise of the welfare state that is corrupting the personal drive and motivation while propagating apathy in our country.

Right because people now are just lazy, hence why they work harder than ever. See you are just not making sense.

a reply to: Esoterotica

How about removing corporate taxes and institute a flat 10-15% sales tax,remove the IRS and use a state governed taxing entity, and remove obamacare?

That would...

-Drive down health care costs.(more competition)
-Drive up health care quality.(more competition).
-lowers business costs by making it so that they can hire more than 49 people full-time without providing obamacare.
-lowers business costs(for smaller businesses this would really help)
-remove the IRS and save $431 billion a year

I lived in Norway for a few years. The government and companies do everything comfortable for the population. Modern apartments (even contemporary style), large homes (needed, because for half the year, it's either dark, or a cloudy electric blue twilight). In Summer, sunlight lasts all night, so people are out at 4am painting the outside of their homes. Roads are wide enough for cars to be parked on either side as well as two lanes of moving traffic. New homes in the UK don't even have front gardens, and the roads are only wide enough for one car to get through at any time.

Wherever businesses and technology parks are located, they are always accessible by public transport, either buses or a Metro line. Housing is expensive (2.5 million Kronor = $250,000 or £250,000), but salaries are high to match as well.
Norway invested all their oil industry profits into a national investment fund. The UK just frittered theirs on tax cuts for the wealthy, and some places, you'll have to walk 1 mile to get to the nearest bus stop and be prepared for service that is 1.5 hours to 2 hours apart. Salaries are identical for every profession at each stage of the career, so you don't have doctors and bankers earning twice as much as engineers or managers.

A leisurely utopia is easily achievable in the U.S. At least in my case, and I don't consider myself especially smart or driven. I dropped out of college after two years and instead took on a scary big debt in business loans. I worked my a** off for 7 yrs and built my business from the ground up. By the time I started a family I was able to hire employees to run the business while I stay home and play pirates and ninja turtles with my son most days. It's awesome. I work an average of 13 hrs a week and have taken two or three months off in the summer for the past 5 yrs. At 34 I'm debt free, semi retired, and living quite comfortably with my family. Thank you capitalism! (Plays Team America song)