Scots Police Teach US Cops How To Avoid Gun Use

originally posted by: Thecakeisalie
a reply to: TrueBrit

A good point-the population of Scotland is what-four million at best? (sorry my thistly friends) and it would be hard to compare or extrapolate the crimes that occur in the US, however the US they have far more firearms per capita and that fact alone could explain why some cops shoot first and are guilty by media later.

Perhaps teaching a cop to be a good cop is the first step, or perhaps teaching citizens to respect the law is the key, but then again there are rules for some and rules for others. I want to hear more stories of good cops because contrary to popular belief they do exist.

What does the amount of guns in the US have to do With police killing unarmed civilians?

If the problem is that the cops kill to many un-armed individual, it aint a gun problem. It is a police attitude problem towards People.

To me it seams like the US have a poor case of selecting the right People to serve as a cop.

originally posted by: DrakeINFERNO
a reply to: crazyewok


Policing in the us is bad because we have a lot of #ty citizens, cops get fed up too. That's why I avoid them because you never know what asshole the cop was with before interacting with you.

So that means if your dentist had an uncooperative patient just before your appointment, it's now ok for him to pull the wrong tooth?

Professional means just that. You DO your job properly, by the book, and follow the oath you took, no matter what the external pressures are.

a reply to: TrueBrit

If I am by myself, on duty or not, and somebody pulls a knife and threatens me, I am drawing my firearm. EVERY TIME.

And I am very comfortable with empty hand self defense as I study Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Muay Thai.

If that makes me a "loser" in yours, or anyone's eyes so be it.

originally posted by: TorqueyThePig
a reply to: TrueBrit

If I am by myself, on duty or not, and somebody pulls a knife and threatens me, I am drawing my firearm. EVERY TIME.

And I am very comfortable with empty hand self defense as I study Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Muay Thai.

If that makes me a "loser" in yours, or anyone's eyes so be it.

I think you would be entirely correct in doing so. However do you think there is more scope for greater use of de- escalation tactics in US policing before it gets to that point?

Appreciate that there is a lot of differences between policing in different areas of the US.

I saw some stats a while ago that showed in all but two years, more cops were killed on duty in the US than combat troops in Afghanistan.

Those sorts of stats would go a long way to explaining US police methodology and who can blame them for being so hyped up?

a reply to: ScepticScot

If you are an American citizen and somebody threatens you with a knife (as long as they have the ability, opportunity, and intent) deadly force can be used.

However, I don't think that more de-escalation training can ever really be a bad thing.

That said, situations evolve rapidly. Sometimes there is not time for de-escalation.

Also, I think a lot of people assume that police only factor in their own safety before deciding to use deadly force. However, that simply isn't true.

For example, let's say an officer is dispatched to a suspect walking around the middle of an intersection brandishing a knife and acting erratically.

The officer arrives on scene and gives the suspect commands to drop the knife. The suspect refuses and continues to advance on the officer with the knife still in their hand.

Of course, the officer is thinking about their own personal safety. They want to live. Asking somebody to disregard such feelings is asking them to ignore human instinct.

Furthermore, the officer is thinking about what if the person stabs and incapacitates/kills me, what then? Will they then walk across the street and into a store and inflict harm upon an innocent citizen, a very plausible scenario.

Sometimes, there is no time for de-escalation techniques. Sometimes, the risk (innocents being harmed) of waiting to stop the threat outweighs the benefit (preserving the life of the suspect) of doing so.

Answer me this, why should anyone (cop or not) have to make concessions for a person that is attempting to harm them with a deadly weapon?

a reply to: SprocketUK

About 2381 American troops have been killed in combat in Afghanistan since 2001.

icasualties.org...

There have been about 2181 police line of duty deaths in American since 2001.

www.nleomf.org...://www.google.com/

Now, not all of those deaths are from firearms. It includes traffic accidents, drowning, falls etc.

That said, at least half of police deaths are a result of intentional murder. The stats may be a little more than half though. I think a safe average would be about 2-5 police murders a month. Of course, each year varies.

I couldn't find a stat on the number of troops that died in Afghanistan due to accidents. Unfortunately, I am sure there were quite a few.

So it's not the most dangerous job in the world if you only factor in death and not the cause of it. That said, police officers are murdered more frequently than I would like to see.

Of course, many officers are shot and not killed, stabbed and not killed, beaten and not killed, etc. Those numbers would show a far greater frequency.

a reply to: TorqueyThePig
Don't get me wrong I completely agree with a police officers (and anyone really) right to protect themselves and police in particular who are expected to put them selves in harms way should use ever advantage they can when confronted with a potentially deadly situation.
It is more those situations as you have touched on where there is more ambiguity. For example does approaching a clearly agitated individual with your gun drawn/hand on it escalate the situation? The topic I suppose is whether techniques that may work well here where the individual is far less likely to have a gun apply in the US?
There is also a lot of subtle cultural differences for example I believe in the US it is a big no no to get out of the car if pulled over (not sure how true that is, perhaps you could advise) here it would generally be considered bad manners not to get out the car.

originally posted by: TonyS
a reply to: angryhulk

I'd really like to see Scotts police try that in South Chicago! Oh, really......I'd PAY to see that. Send some over to give it a go, but please send them equipped with their own body bags. Body bags is getting expensive in Illinois.

I wouldn't of expected you to understand the local humour over here, nevermind.

a reply to: TorqueyThePig

Thanks. It certainly makes me think that every single shift would be almost as stressful as a patrol in Helmand for some police officers, I doubt there can be many who haven't lost a friend or have some horror story to tell a new recruit.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Cypress

I think that Scotland is a good place to learn this kind of policing.

I am guessing that most people outside of the UK are unaware of how Violent some areas of Scotland actually are.

Just as violent as parts of Manchester and London, possibly.

Sounds like US Police could do with learning Tactical Edge...

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Cypress
Don't recall ever reading any posts that Scotland has no crime at all. And some of those fluffy bunnies are just mental.

Our rabbits have a vicious streak a mile wide, just ask Tim the Enchanter...

originally posted by: djz3ro

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Cypress
Don't recall ever reading any posts that Scotland has no crime at all. And some of those fluffy bunnies are just mental.

Our rabbits have a vicious streak a mile wide, just ask Tim the Enchanter...

We could replace Tasers with holy hand grenades?

a reply to: ScepticScot

Approaching a suspect armed with a knife without having your gun drawn can have deadly consequences.

There is a somewhat controversial teaching called the Tueller Drill (21 foot rule).

en.wikipedia.org...

There is truth to this teaching.

That said, some people may not be able to advance 21 feet before an officer can draw and fire their weapon. However, some people may be able to advance faster and cover more than 21 feet before an officer can draw and fire their weapon.

How can an officer know how quick or skilled the armed suspect is?

Now, if all the stars align and the situation produces the opportunity to disarm the suspect without the officer(s) discharging their firearms, the attempt should absolutely be made.

And you know what, it happens more often than people realize. It just doesn't make or receive as much play in the national media.

www.usatoday.com...

www.wptv.com...

www.bostonglobe.com... y.html

www.nj.com...

cliffviewpilot.com...

www.policeone.com...

I could post more....

Remember, the police are not one single entity that think and act as one. Each police agency is made from many unique individuals. These individuals will not always think and act the same. The human element is always present.

Again every situation is different, and probably more often than not, don't end with the knife wielding suspect being killed.

a reply to: Maverick7

different job, the patient before didnt try to kill the dentist prior just maybe some halitosis or a reflex bite.

When you think you have heard it all someone from Scotland drops the term "buckfast fuelled weegie"

I dont know what that is but it Sounds serious.

a reply to: GoShredAK

It is a person from Glasgow, a Glaswegian (Weegie) intoxicated on Buckfast tonic wine, a nasty cheap and syrup like (15% of volume alcohol) drink popular to alcoholics.
Curiously the drink is produced under license from Benedict Monks of Buckfast Abbey, Devon, and Scotland is it's biggest export market for some reason or other.

originally posted by: GoShredAK
I dont know what that is but it Sounds serious.

Bucky is a totally disgusting alcoholic beverage that you generally associate with the homeless, winos or a contingent of society called chavs.

a reply to: Bedlam

What do you get when you drink the wine?
A forty pound fine and a year's probation
Your heid kicked in at the polis station
I..I..I'll - never drink the wine again ... a-a-ain
I'll never drink the wine again

(sung to the tune of I'll Never Fall in Love Again)

They have it on optics in some bars where I come from!

Well that just sounds like a bad hangover you guys. Thanks for the lesson.

Cheap + high alcohol content = regret lol.