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originally posted by: OveRcuRrEnteD
a reply to: Indigo5
Both women said they saw him with his hands up when the first three shots were fired after he got out of the truck. Why do you discount this so adamantly?
I'll start where we have some common ground. I think we both agree that the bullets stopped about the same time the truck stopped. From Victoria's statement in the OP video:
1:18:20 "because the bullets stopped coming when we stopped, when the vehicle stopped"
What did Levoy do when the truck stopped? He immediately got out
to protect the women because he knew he was the target.
That's why he was shouting at them to just shoot him, because that is what he thought they wanted.
1:18:10 "as soon as the vehicle came to a stop Levoy opened his door"
1:19:00 "but I just know that as soon as it came to a stop he opened the door"
1:19:28 "but he had his hands up the whole time and the next thing we knew they shot him. three consecutive shots at the same time" Right there she is claiming she saw him with his hands up and three shots.
1:19:38 "and I ducked down immediately" So how did she see him go down?
1:19:43 "then we heard three more shots but they didn't hit our vehicle so we were like they just shot him when he was down" No, she didn't see him go down because she ducked. The interviewer wants to be clear so he asks her "so you heard three shots-pop pop pop" she says "yes" he continues his question "and then momentarily later you heard three more-pop pop pop" she says "yes. and we saw him go down right as the first three shots hit him"
I think they saw him when he was reaching for the wounds and was bending a little just as he started turning toward the truck and assumed he was going down. I mean, he was just shot after all and she said they ducked immediately.
So, my question for you is: Do you consistently not mention the second three shots because you think they are irrelevant due to your focus on what you want to hear (that same "sound byte" you keep repeating) or did you just simply not take the time to look at all possibilities before coming to your conclusion?
I disagree. I've already stated why so I won't be repeating myself.
I discount the claims by them that his hands were up "the whole time" and when those shots landed simply because (a) the video shows something very different than that
(b) Victoria when interviewed by CNN and reviewing the video modified her recollection to afford for the fact that his hands were not up the whole time.
speculation. without audio there is no proof.
nor were they up when he was "first" shot "3 times" rapid succession and "Immediately went down"
I did consider it. It is relevant in both of our scenarios. In mine because maybe he is attempting to defend himself at the point he has both hands in his coat when his back was to the camera milliseconds before the second set of three shots took him down. In yours because it is the reason you believe he was going for a gun when he first put his hand down and was reaching.
If we are going to speculate why he shouted just shoot me, his repeated discussions about his intents if confronted or if there was an attempt to arrest him should be considered?
Ok. let me ask you this: If they did actually see him go down, why did they duck? He was down right? So why duck if it's over and he is dead? Why didn't she start screaming for help right then? I do not question her honesty. I obviously believe her version of the story. It's much easier for me to believe she/they assumed he went down rather than that they are lying about having his hands up the whole time.
Slow down there...she clearly and repeatedly said he "Immediately" dropped and went down when those three shots hit. No question..no maybe's..she recalls seeing him go down "immediately" with those three shots. She claims to have ducked her head after he dropped and explains this with tragic tone...she saw him die etc. Do you question her honesty here?
I'm just going to leave this at: I disagree.
When LaVoy went down, all snipers and back-up immediately zoomed in on him. There was a moment when his right arm reached up. That was the second three shots to make sure he was no longer a threat. Brutal, but not unusual protocol.
That is not what the video shows. He was stumbling through the deep snow toward the back of the truck with his hands up. His hands come down as he stopped walking which would not be "immediately" Then, as he turns back he takes two steps in place and only takes two more steps before the fatal shots. He is actually less than two steps from where he first dropped his hands because he is also turning around.
If you listen carefully to Victoria's statement, she describes him stumbling through the deep snow..the first time Lavoy reached was near immediately, before he struggled with the depth of the snow
Not really. She was more adamant about him having his hands up when the first three shots were fired. How did she manage to forget him putting his hands down and turning around? She didn't forget. She just didn't see it.
She was also adamant about him going down and seeing that clearly.
I disagree. Her timeline is from when he got out of the truck to just as he was dropping his hands. That's what she saw before she ducked.
so VIctoria's timeline is after he had reached for the first time.
See above. He was less than two steps.
Then she would have thought he died right beside the truck (first reach) and realized when she exited that his body was much further away
Again, I disagree. it aligns perfectly to the video and her words with the exception of actually seeing him go down.
It simply does not align to the video nor her actual words.
I am saying your theory requires the majority of her recounting to be inaccurate or false, including things she was pretty adamant about seeing, while mine only requires that she was wrong about the hands up the whole time thing.
We sink into the snow and we're stuck. We come to a dead stop. They started shooting immediately and LaVoy jumped out," Cox said.
They shot him
Sharp was next. "She sees LaVoy. 'He's dead. They killed him,'" Cox quoted her as saying.
Sharp was screaming "They're trying to kill us" and then at the top of her lungs yelled at police to stop. Cox said she joined in, and the firing did stop.