Oregon protest leader Ammon Bundy is arrested, says source

You should have seen the things the FBI did to MLK to get him to shut up.

And, when a person refuses to shut up, I guess they just execute you on the side of the road.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Gryphon66

I think your too focused on their faults.

Try focusing on the real problem which is the BLM. I'm more afraid of them then I am a couple Bundy boys. They are far more powerful.

I'm not focused on their faults at all.

I'm focused on the illegitimacy of the message that anyone is above the rule of law and the US Constitution is not the supreme law of the land.

The American system of government is the most equitable in the world. That is not to say that any level of government, Federal, State or local never makes mistakes ... because they do. Sometimes, BIG ONES.

That's where you and some others completely misapprehend what I and some others are saying ... we don't love an overreaching government when it actually does overreach. That's not what's going on in Oregon OR Arizona OR Nevada though. Or if it is, it needs to be dealt with through our system of government, which is to my mind, again, right or wrong, is the best and most equitable in the history of the world.

For most of us, the Constitution is the final answer for either outlaw citizens or an outlaw Government.

I'm sure BLM has made some mistakes. I'm sure there are less than honest things that go on sometimes. But not everything BLM does is wrong. Not everything the US Government does is wrong, illegal, tyranical, etc.

If the government (i.e. the Executive Branch) oversteps, you take it to court, that's why we have three branches of government.

You don't gather up your guns and your buddies and go pretend to take over a bird sanctuary, endangering other people's lives as well as your own.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Sweet Bleeding Jesus ... the rank ignorance on display here is obscene.
....

Indeed it is.
I blame the government-sponsored education system of the past three decades. Zero Tolerance of anything that doesn't match the government story. Instead of studying the writings of the men who penned the very documents on which our laws are based, or the philosophies of the literature they studied, students today are taught to look into the personal lives of the founders to find and exploit their human flaws.
We've sat back and watched the erosion of our rights to the point that now we are told that we must chose between rights if we want to exercise them. If we wish to speak freely and freely associate to protest, we certainly can do so under the First Amendment. But if we wish to exercise our Second Amendment rights, we can't do that while exercising our First Amendment rights. Do we have to give up our Fifth Amendment rights too or can we mix them with Amendment Two. We can't exercise our Third and Fifth at the same time or if we're exercising Amendment One then Amendment Eight is void.
Please explain to me how that works.

The Constitution makes very plain that the federal government is the servant of the states and the states are the servant of the people. So right there in your FBI mission statement is an over-reach of their power. They are not to "provide leadership" to anyone, they are to serve the people. That's the simple fact that they have forgotten.
It is the job of the States, according to the Constitution, to exercise the power they are granted, but when they fail to do so, as they have done so often in pursuit of power and money, it is up to the people to stand up and demand action.

I am tired and sick nearly to death of hearing the tired old mantra, "Well, we know there are abuses of course, but this just isn't a good time to protest, or, this isn't a person I'd like to be seen as supporting even though it is clear that abuses do take place from time to time." Essentially saying that people who complain loudly are "just seeking attention" in one breath while admitting that people are abused all the time by governmental agencies.

“We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.” ― Benjamin Franklin

And from another patriot:

“They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year?
Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house?
Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction?
Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot?
Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power.” ― Patrick Henry

a reply to: Gryphon66

Who was actually endangering lives tho?

And I see where we differ. I believe the BLM is slightly corrupt and abuses its power.

a reply to: Informer1958
It is standard operating procedure to consider them a threat and keep them in jail. They did it to the women who stood silently in front of the White House demanding the right to vote back at the turn of the 20th century. That's how long this has been going on. The difference is they didn't blatantly ambush and shoot down these women down in the middle of the street.
These guys are dangerous to the government because they are speaking truth and gathering people together in great gobs to learn their actual rights as citizens. Anyone who can draw 300 people together in a county of just over 4k voters is a threat to the reigning administrations. When they speak truth and attempt to bring people together rather than create discord, they must be stopped. They must be demonized and called violent. If that doesn't work, force must be used.
The single instance of violence in this case is that of the government agents shooting a man with his hands in the air then turning their weapons on a truck full of people who had done nothing to suggest that they were violent.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: GeisterFahrer

And the FBI has no authorization by Congress, or the United States Constitution, to act as the military. They are Investigators.

Right. They are not military. They are part of the Department of Justice. They are law enforcement.

Is that the same Dept. of Justice which, under Bush and continuing under the current administration, allowed weapons to be illegally sold to Mexican drug cartels? Completely in violation of Federal law. And we're supposed to do as they say, not as they do---right? It's okay for them to violate the laws passed by Congress because they're the Executive Branch? How does that work? Where is the exemption in the Constitution that says the Executive Branch doesn't have to follow the laws passed by the Legislative Branch?

a reply to: Gryphon66

They presented a militarized force supplied by the federal government. No different than the King of England sending troops to be quartered in the colonies. Just such displays were what prompted Patrick Henry to say this:

I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided; and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the house? Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet.
Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with these warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation?
Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation - the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array if its purpose be not to force us to submission?
Can gentlemen assign any other possible motives for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other.
They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer on the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain.
Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication?
What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted?

Sound familiar? A marital array is the last resort of kings, not a government instituted to protect the rights of the people.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: enlightenedservant

It's real.
res.cloudinary.com...

From your link ... this pretty much answers every "question" that has been thrown up here ...

By its very nature, this offense demonstrates a remarkable inability on the part of all charged defendants to follow the law, and thus comply with the terms of court-ordered supervision.

In this case, all defendants deliberately and publicly disregarded repeated orders, requests, and pressure to obey the law over a sustained period of time. They did so in manner that endangered, and continues to endanger, the residents of Harney County, Oregon.

Critically, the alleged crime was not born out of impulse—it was deliberate and designed to undermine authority at every stage. As a result, each defendant appears before this Court having already demonstrated that no condition or combination of conditions could reasonably assure their appearance or the safety of the community.

That to me reads to me as a little sinister...how long i wonder until we see American citizens ending up in similar lock ups to Guantanamo bay, this is the start of a new wave of domestic terrorism that will see many more people in the slammer than these guys....how long until a simple facebook post that is anti government winds up with a swat team at your door at 3am ?

American citizens who have broken State and Federal laws, repeatedly, over the space of weeks, in full sight of the entire world? Have spat on the Constitution, endangered the citizens of Oregon, and threatened Law Enforcement Officers?

Those American citizens?

They will be dealt with according tot he laws of the land, I would guess. /shrug

If the Government were the horrible monstrous Despot you and others seem to see it as ... there would have been no traffic stop ... there would have been a series of Hellfire missiles from drones out of sight miles away.

Instead, all we got was a ridiculous back-bending attempt on the part of the Feds, Oregon Police, County Police et. al. to make sure these criminals didn't harm themselves or anyone else, after being given multiple opportunities to cease their ridiculous, illegal "occupation" and go home to Nevada, Arizona, Georgia ... and wherever else.

Again, sir, I challenge you to prove your allegations of: "Have spat on the Constitution, endangered the citizens of Oregon, and threatened Law Enforcement Officers?" with some sort of evidence other than the allegations of the government---show the actions you are alleging or stop your slanderous claims.
I'm repeating this request because you have ignored several requests to do so. Without evidence you are simply making white noise that attempts to misdirect attention. Show me where the men leading this movement did what you say and I will apologize. Otherwise, you are simply a cad who is part of the very large problem we face.

a reply to: Gryphon66

...
As well as an absence of anything resembling facts, evidence, meaningful connections to the topic, etc.

And a fine one to type, you are. Having repeatedly stated that these men threatened law enforcement and stomped on the Constitution and yet having not one shred of evidence to present to back up your spurious claims! Just put up one video that shows what you claim happened. Videos of msm saying that they've done this don't count. Just show where they did what you are alleging. One video or the name calling.

a reply to: Gryphon66
Who appointed you judge and jury to say that those people are felons? Please show their past record, where they were convicted of felonies! Or continue to appear foolish in your emotional ranting in support of the Empire.
You can't even provide a video to back up your slanderous accusations of threatening federal agents and Oregon citizens so I'm not expecting you to back up your claim of felons where no felons exist.

I'll bet you've never heard of Clarenece Gideon.
Your education isn't complete until you understand what this criminal accomplished.

a reply to: diggindirt

I've answered every request. You claim every source of evidence is a voice of the greater conspiracy you mistakenly believe exists.

I don't care for your apology nor your name-calling so proceed if you truly wish to make your support of lawlessness and hatred of the Constitution and our system of government even more clear.

You're absolutely right ... the people who believe in our Constitution, support the rule of law and are still rational functional human beings ARE a big part of the problem you face.

You are clearly exhibiting the true tyrant that lives in the heart of every so-called rebel. You deny what you see directly before your eyes. You deny the recorded words of your heroes. You simply can't stand the fact that Americans stand up to you and support our Constitution and way of life.

You are simply slathering to shut down any speech with varies from the cult screed of your little band of miscreants.

If you want to see the problem facing America today, perhaps you should look closer to home ...

Maybe in the mirror.

a reply to: Gryphon66
Not a single video link have you provided. Not one. No evidence at all of your claims and yet you call me a zealot? You are the one using inflammatory and slanderous language, simply repeating the words of the BigSix handmaidens of the federal government. You have no evidence because it doesn't exist so you have no case.
I could call you a felon but it wouldn't make it so. I could call my cat a kangaroo but it wouldn't make him hop.
I'm not the one trying to shut down speech, I'm asking you to back up your claims and you're coming up empty finding any evidence. If you had it you would show it for all to see.
A militarized federal force was sent to apprehend peaceful protesters who had done nothing other than occupy public land in an attempt to bring about negotiations with abusive federal agencies. They were exercising their First and Second Amendment rights. You've yet to explain to me how that is in any way "intimidating" to anyone not meaning to do those people harm. They stated from the beginning that they were not looking for a violent uprising or bloodshed. So why would anyone be "intimidated" by people exercising their rights?
I missed the part where you explained how it is illegal to exercise more than one of your rights at the same time. You have no argument beyond slander and emotion because you have no evidence or facts on your side---witnessed by your lack of presentation of same.

a reply to: diggindirt

Video link? With what, some buffoonish character spouting nonsense and clumsy Photoshopped graphics pretending to be a legitimate news source? LOL

You have a clear video of your felonious hero Finicum's assault and you're denying that in our faces.

There are multiple videos of interviews with your little band of trespassers in which they repeatedly lie and claim that the Constitution says something other than it says, that the US Government doesn't have any authority over them, that they are free to ignore Federal, State and local laws as they wish, that they intend to occupy public land as a hostile militarized force, that they hypocritically take advantage of the People's money in various programs (small business loans, abuse of the foster care system and now, Federal public defenders), that they abused and threatened Oregon residents (like the employees of the Refuge, anyone they perceived to be a BLM agent, etc.)

And still you're still muttering the pandering, lying rhetoric yourself ... with every post.

No matter what you're provided with you're asking for more and more "evidence" over and over again, not just of me but of every poster.

It's one of your tactics; and you're not fooling anyone here.

The First Amendment doesn't allow for trespassing or misuse and destruction of the property of the American People.

The Second Amendment doesn't allow for using those Constitutionally sanctioned arms being borne to intimidate, threaten and terrorize the Citizens of Oregon and Harney County, Federal employees of the bird sanctuary, Federal and State law enforcement agents, etc. etc. etc.

And now you're merely lying blatantly in my face: I've never stated that anyone can't exercise "more than one right at a time." More harangue, more deception ... more BS.

You're just another revolutionary with the heart of an impotent policeman; a frustrated tyrant pretending to be a rebel.

Why don't you offer some evidence for your wild claims? Eh? I mean, all you've done so far is deny reality and lie about what others say ... so why don't you prove that your little band of hypocritical tin soldiers are what you claim they are.

Or continue to do your best to thwart the free discussion of these matters ... you'll just continue to fail miserably.

originally posted by: diggindirt
a reply to: Gryphon66

Sweet Bleeding Jesus ... the rank ignorance on display here is obscene.
....

Indeed it is.
I blame the government-sponsored education system of the past three decades. Zero Tolerance of anything that doesn't match the government story. Instead of studying the writings of the men who penned the very documents on which our laws are based, or the philosophies of the literature they studied, students today are taught to look into the personal lives of the founders to find and exploit their human flaws.
We've sat back and watched the erosion of our rights to the point that now we are told that we must chose between rights if we want to exercise them. If we wish to speak freely and freely associate to protest, we certainly can do so under the First Amendment. But if we wish to exercise our Second Amendment rights, we can't do that while exercising our First Amendment rights. Do we have to give up our Fifth Amendment rights too or can we mix them with Amendment Two. We can't exercise our Third and Fifth at the same time or if we're exercising Amendment One then Amendment Eight is void.
Please explain to me how that works.

The Constitution makes very plain that the federal government is the servant of the states and the states are the servant of the people. So right there in your FBI mission statement is an over-reach of their power. They are not to "provide leadership" to anyone, they are to serve the people. That's the simple fact that they have forgotten.
It is the job of the States, according to the Constitution, to exercise the power they are granted, but when they fail to do so, as they have done so often in pursuit of power and money, it is up to the people to stand up and demand action.

I am tired and sick nearly to death of hearing the tired old mantra, "Well, we know there are abuses of course, but this just isn't a good time to protest, or, this isn't a person I'd like to be seen as supporting even though it is clear that abuses do take place from time to time." Essentially saying that people who complain loudly are "just seeking attention" in one breath while admitting that people are abused all the time by governmental agencies.

“We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.” ― Benjamin Franklin

And from another patriot:

“They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year?
Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house?
Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction?
Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot?
Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power.” ― Patrick Henry

Dirt, you are a hoot. You managed to get some impressive quotes in from some actual patriots and imply that they apply to this batch of clowns who occupied a bird sanctuary and intimidated the locals with an armed presence. When do you think Ammon will make his eloquent speech about how his daddy accidentally forgot to pay the bills for 20 years while grazing cattle on public land and now that the money is due, the Feds are soooo oppressive? I can imagine his impassioned and eloquent speech now. Inspiring words about how the Bundy's provided years of free cow flops to the Citizens of the US and only got the bird....sanctuary in return. About how trashing the buildings and property of the American people was justified to avoid paying the Bundy grazing fees. About how the Bundy ranch was so important that it cost LaVoy his life. About how the bad old police went and outwitted and betrayed the leadership as they were off to provide free constitutional misinformation to another group, denying that populace their God-given rights to have their intelligence insulted.
I'm certain the Bundy speech will go down in history and be quoted for centuries much like the Bundy relative, Al.

As I have repeatedly stated throughout these various threads on the matter, and what many here seem to fail to realize is...

This whole series of events (in Nevada and now Oregon) has degenerated / devolved from a 'who's right and who's wrong' situation into a case of 'who's MORE WRONG'.

The Bundy's are wrong. Finicum was wrong...and so too are the Feds wrong.

It brings to mind the proverbial saying of, 'Two wrongs don't make a right', and in the context of this notion it becomes much more difficult to clearly identify the cause or the villain.

(Double tap)

a reply to: Gryphon66

Just post one link to back up your claim.
One link.
One bit of evidence.
You have a word salad---that's what you call evidence and yet it's me who is denying reality.

No, I'm not the one making wild claims. That would be you. With not a single video showing what you claim happened. Not one shred of evidence that anyone was threatened or harmed in any way by anyone other than a government agent. Nobody except a peaceful protester who was shot down like a dog on the side of the road.

You don't have to post all those multiple links you've found, one will do of the leaders saying what you've alleged, or of a felony conviction for any of the people involved in the occupation. Just one.

Here is Ryan Bundy stating specifically that they are supporting the Constitution. www.youtube.com...
Do you think he would be quoting a document that he wants to spit on? What kind of twisted brain would imagine such a thing?
These are his words, not msm's report of his words.

Oh wait, I found it! Here's Ammon himself saying how he wants to violate the Constitution and use it for starting fires! (Hint: You have to load the video, then play it backwards in order to hear the real message he's putting out. Don't be fooled by what your lying ears are hearing him actually say.)
www.youtube.com...

You have nothing but bigoted, emotional, unsupported charges fed to you by msm and the feds. And you believed them! I'm not the one being blind to reality here. I'm the one actually listening to what the people involved were saying.
I'm not the one thwarting any discussion. I'm asking you to back up your charges. You can't so you attack.
I'm used to it. Won't keep me from discussing anything but failing to back up your claims kinda stops your part of the conversation unless you want to spew some more of the same attacks on me personally.

You can't tell me why being armed at a civil disobedience protest is grounds for a para-military response by the feds.
You echo the feds' claim that these men were threatening and intimidating federal employees but you have no evidence of that beyond "the FBI said."
The sheriff certainly says he is not fearful.
www.youtube.com...

Oh, and here's the actual meeting with the FBI. You judge if they are being threatened.
www.youtube.com...

There is my evidence. Where is yours?

Come on, folks...you know how this works....

Go after the ball, not the player. Attack a position, not a person. Lets get back to the thread topic, using some decorum, and discuss this with civility.

The alternative is post removals and posting bans. Please don't make it so.

As well, please don't respond to this post.

Thank you

bigffatfurrytexan
Forum Moderator

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
...'Two wrongs don't make a right'...

But three lefts do.