EU shock as 'out' vote sweeps 6% ahead!

I wanted to leave but the more I read the more I want to leave the madness mainly having laws made from Brussels rather than by people we vote in. Take for instance the floods in Cumbria apparently that is anothet problem caused by the EU because of the law saying we cant dredge rivers.

a reply to: rigel4

"No. The truth they don’t tell you is that even if they wanted to, neither the UK government, nor the Environment Agency has the power to dredge – or the money. So next time you see David Cameron and his MP acolytes swanning around Cumbria in wellingtons, high-viz jackets and hard hats, wringing their hands and promising to do whatever it takes to protect us from flooding, ask them how exactly they intend to get round the European Water Framework Directive. And they would have to tell you they can’t. Not while we remain in the EU. So any sympathy politicians express for the plight of their constituents is either based on ignorance, or deceit. It’s about time we asked them which it is.
"
 

a reply to: anxiouswens
Just one example of many, we can't even subsidise our steel industry because EU legislation forbids it.
The 10 billion £GBP annual membership fee we pay to the EU could have saved a lot of jobs and helped a lot of lives.

Don't forget our fishing industry! Absolute disgrace that we gave up our coastal waters.

a reply to: anxiouswens

Actually, Britons benefit from the EU - a lot. The UK contributes LESS than other similar EU economies (France, Germany) as it gets a special rebate. In the period 2007-2013 Brits contributes £3.8 billion (£63 per person). This meager contribution gives the UK access to the entire single market. The UK government estimates the benefits of having access to the single market at somewhere between £30 billion - £90 billion p/a. A ROI of at least EIGHT times, and it may even be up to 23 times! 85 percent of British entrepreneurs want to stay IN. So, if your economy is worth anything to you, vote "IN".

All very well, but we'd have access outside.
Unless the EU countries no longer want to sell us their cars, scooters, machine tools etc.

As for paying next to nothing, how much did we pay in 2015? It was 12 billion odd. About the same as the government's austerity package cut.

Well where to start on this little chess nut, I have not been able to read all the posts but I will give my view..

Europe to me is a good idea in theory but we do not live in theory and as such I can say the UK has been ruined by constant legislation coming from Brussells that more often than not simply restricts what you can do and forces absurd ideas onto a nation. I come up against constant situations where I want to do something only to be told due to EU legislation number blah blah and because the day of the week ends in a "Y" it is not possible, the frustration I feel has taken me to a point of almost coming out of society even though I have a decent job that is people facing I can tell I am just going through the motions with now. Anyway back to my point..

The thing that I worry about or should I say the people I worry for are the expats that are working or who have retired out of the UK to normally warmer climes in the EU. If the UK does leave what happens to them?, are they left in limbo or a bureaucratic purgatory?. I imagine there are thousands if not a few hundred thousand people in this situation.

I have even spoke loosely about leaving the UK myself with my wife and son to somewhere like Finland as I value their education system far higher that what is offered here esp as they promote outdoor activity and they "seem" to allow a child the time to develop and be creative as opposed to here where they have all enthusiasm squeezed out of them at a stupidly eatly age so they can begin the transition to becoming a obedient member of the work force that will learn to bow to his/her corporate master.. If we was to leave that plan would be shelved and in that case I would be looking further afield.

It is however very easy to see why people want out and we all know the elephant in the room is immigration (shock horror).. Middle england has had enough and if they havent the newspapers do the job for them.

In saying all this I will eat my hat if we do leave as I simply cannot see how our overlords will allow it however 6 percent is a very healthy margin in a vote like this so time will tell..


RA

originally posted by: SprocketUK
All very well, but we'd have access outside.
Unless the EU countries no longer want to sell us their cars, scooters, machine tools etc.

Yes, the rest of the EU can and will sell their stuff in the UK, even if you're "out". But YOU won't be able to sell your stuff on our markets at the same favourable terms you have now anymore, that's the point.

As for paying next to nothing, how much did we pay in 2015? It was 12 billion odd. About the same as the government's austerity package cut.

You don't get the point - it's not the amount you have to pay, its the amount that you EARN with that investment that matters. Yes, you payed a lot of money, but, as I said before, you EARNED about EIGHT TIMES as much in return.

originally posted by: anxiouswens
Here, here, as I said I have lots of Scottish friends with lots of differing views but even the ones who were staunch SNP and wanted to leave have become disillusioned with SNP as they havent come up with the goods but have turned out to be like every other politician.

Care to point out where the SNP havn't came up with the goods here in Scotland...

New forth road bridge to be completed on time and under budget.
Dundee's £100 million Waterfront project will be completed ahead of schedule and on budget,
30,000 houses built as apposed to Labours 8.
Free Prescriptions,
Council tax frozen for 8 consecutive years.
Free School meals for under 8's,
Free tuition,
free eye tests.
I could go on but feel free to add where the SNP have failed on it's promises. They have a far superior record of getting things done and balancing the books than any other party in the UK.

Howz that financial whizz/towel folder Osbourne suiting ya all....Defecit...Failure, Borrowing...Failure, Debt...massive Failure

My guess is your friends aren't SNP or are figments of your overactive imagination.

originally posted by: slider1982I can say the UK has been ruined by constant legislation coming from Brussells that more often than not simply restricts what you can do and forces absurd ideas onto a nation.

Well, actually, the European Parliament is much better than the UK parliament at saying ‘no’ to controversial proposals. Most EP proposals are heavily amended before they can pass - there is no compliant government majority to ensure that proposals are whipped through, like there often is in national parliaments. If you study the rules and regulations you will find that the ones that give you the biggest headaches - are all national.

It is however very easy to see why people want out and we all know the elephant in the room is immigration (shock horror)..

People want out because most of them are ignorant. They haven't studied the problem - they only see the things they want to see. They associate freely to enable them to ride their hobby horses, for example their built-in fear of foreigners. Fear, uncertainty and doubt rule - and a total misunderstanding of the difference between their circle of influence versus their circle of concern. Also, a deeply grounded mistrust against their forefathers, whom wrestled with this process of unification for hundreds of years, until they finally had an United Kingdom, and after that, finally became part of the EU. All well-thought out democratic processes, all proven to be correct and highly succesful - but no, let's throw it all out because we see that the world is not perfect - it MUST be the EU.

Or worse: it MUST be the FOREIGNERS!

If a Brit, born in Wensleydale UK in 1957, steals a car, he's said to be a thief; it has no bearing on others from Wensleydale nor on others from the UK. If a Brit, born in Syria in 1957 steals a car, he's said to be a "bloody foreigner" and it HAS a bearing on all others from Syria. Amazing. And in neither case - unless you know this man - were you able to do anything about it! But nevertheless, from the armchair comes the solution: "close the borders", "kick these foreigners out!", "let's leave the union" and "Britons nehehehehever will be slaves.."

But if you kicked out every single "foreigner" - your cars will be stolen still. It's not foreigners that should be your concern, not even thieves. It's protecting your cars and keeping a eye out to spot the potential thief in your neighbourhood. You can do something about HIM (or her, it happens). That would help. The rest is simply out of your reach. Fine to discuss it here, but out of your reach.

Yes, you are allowed to vote "no" or "yes". That IS within your reach. But pretty please, base your decision on the facts, not on an impulse. Have some trust in others, we're in this together.

Note, that as one of those "leftists", I'm actually very, very skeptical about the EU; but even to the most skeptic person it's clear that we have gained a LOT by joining forces. We're quite strong, the LARGEST economy in the world and we are, far more than say the US, the living example of "e pluribus unum!". We are massively different in culture yet have managed to keep peace for 75 years now, where, when we weren't united, we had fascism, wars and millions of deaths caused by countless wars. Count your danged blessings, folks.

In saying all this I will eat my hat if we do leave as I simply cannot see how our overlords will allow it however 6 percent is a very healthy margin in a vote like this so time will tell..

You don't have "overlords" - that's a figment of your imagination. You have a government, chosen by the people. The system is old and needs maintenance, as it was constructed in a time that people were even MORE ignorant and communication was slow and limited to the chosen few. But nevertheless, it's the best system we have and it deserves a little bit of respect.

As we say in my country: 2 cheers for democracy. 3 would be a bit much..

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: SprocketUK
All very well, but we'd have access outside.
Unless the EU countries no longer want to sell us their cars, scooters, machine tools etc.

Yes, the rest of the EU can and will sell their stuff in the UK, even if you're "out". But YOU won't be able to sell your stuff on our markets at the same favourable terms you have now anymore, that's the point.

As for paying next to nothing, how much did we pay in 2015? It was 12 billion odd. About the same as the government's austerity package cut.

You don't get the point - it's not the amount you have to pay, its the amount that you EARN with that investment that matters. Yes, you payed a lot of money, but, as I said before, you EARNED about EIGHT TIMES as much in return.

Your first point is utter balderdash.
A free trade agreement is exactly that. It means that in return for free access to our market the other party must provide the same.

At present we run a deficit with the EU so there is no danger of them breaking international law by imposing tariffs on our goods as some sort of punishment.

Your second point is also nebulous. You ignored the costs of implementing all the legislation, the jobs lost to uk industry as a result and the costs of not being able to dredge our own rivers for example. The costs of which will run into many billions.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: anxiouswens
Here, here, as I said I have lots of Scottish friends with lots of differing views but even the ones who were staunch SNP and wanted to leave have become disillusioned with SNP as they havent come up with the goods but have turned out to be like every other politician.

Care to point out where the SNP havn't came up with the goods here in Scotland...

New forth road bridge to be completed on time and under budget.
Dundee's £100 million Waterfront project will be completed ahead of schedule and on budget,
30,000 houses built as apposed to Labours 8.
Free Prescriptions,
Council tax frozen for 8 consecutive years.
Free School meals for under 8's,
Free tuition,
free eye tests.
I could go on but feel free to add where the SNP have failed on it's promises. They have a far superior record of getting things done and balancing the books than any other party in the UK.

Howz that financial whizz/towel folder Osbourne suiting ya all....Defecit...Failure, Borrowing...Failure, Debt...massive Failure

My guess is your friends aren't SNP or are figments of your overactive imagination.

Well if England leaves the EU , Scotland feel free to leave the UK. Scotland can Kow tow and Grovel to there EU masters like good little puppies, woof woof. Maybe Mistress Merkal will thow you a bone or two ha!

a reply to: ForteanOrg

You don't get the point -.....

Sorry mate, I think its you who doesn't get the point; the vast majority of Brits fully understand the benefits of being part of a Free Trade Association and don't have a problem with it.

What many have a problem with is the move towards political union - a move that is gathering pace rapidly.
That transfer of sovereignty to a foreign body is actually illegal according to UK Law.

A lot of people have no desire to be governed by a body that at times puts the interests of other constituent nations before the interests and wishes of the British people.
That's not xenophobic or having a dislike of 'Johnny Foreigner' - its simply wishing to govern ourselves.

Now I don't know about the electorate of other nations but the British people have never had the opportunity to express their democratic right and vote for political union with the EU.
That is what pisses us off.

As I stated in a previous post; I can actually see the benefits of some sort of Federal Europe.
But not this bloated behemoth that is riddled to the core with corruption and is blatantly pushing other agendas which may, or indeed are, detrimental to the British people.

You imply that 'we' wish to expel all foreigners - absolute bollocks.
Sure, some do, but the vast majority would never support such a move.

Of course we have domestic issues - show me a country that doesn't.

You mention the benefits of being part of the EU......but there's one glaring downside to it - the standard of living of ordinary, everyday British people has decreased in real terms during this move towards political union.
I'd be a complete idiot if I was to blame EU membership solely for that....but its certainly contributed.

At the end of the day all we want is an open and frank public discussion on all the pro's and con's of continued EU membership and then to have the opportunity to exercise our RIGHT to Self-Determination.......what exactly is wrong with that?

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Sorry mate but it seems you're talking a lot of rubbish. You never provide any links to prove your opinions, because that is what they are, just your opinions.

For example when you said.. "The rest of the EU can and will sell their stuff in the UK, even if you're "out". But YOU won't be able to sell your stuff on our markets at the same favourable terms you have now anymore, that's the point."

Have you got ANY proof of this at all? because it just sounds like yet more fear-mongering to be honest.

originally posted by: 83LibertyFor example when you said.. "The rest of the EU can and will sell their stuff in the UK, even if you're "out". But YOU won't be able to sell your stuff on our markets at the same favourable terms you have now anymore, that's the point." Have you got ANY proof of this at all? because it just sounds like yet more fear-mongering to be honest.

Oh, well, - proof! Sorry, I can't even prove that the sun wil rise tomorrow - but it will, mark my words

a reply to: ForteanOrg
OK I should have wrote 'evidence to support your opinion' instead.
I think you knew that but instead just took the easy way out.

Funny how you haven't commented on any of Freeborn's points.

a reply to: 83Liberty

Oh, well. If you insist.

the vast majority of Brits fully understand the benefits of being part of a Free Trade Association and don't have a problem with it.

I won't be childish, so I won't ask for evidence

But being part of a European free trade association was NOT the reason the Brits joined the EU. You were already part of the EFTA (a European Free Trade Zone, Austria, Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Portugal, Sweden, Switzerland and the United Kingdom). EFTA later had FTA's with the EEC. So, if all you wanted had been "being part of a FTA" - you did not had have to join in 1972.

What many have a problem with is the move towards political union - a move that is gathering pace rapidly.
That transfer of sovereignty to a foreign body is actually illegal according to UK Law.

Thhe EU does not "force" anything on anybody - it are the national parliaments that do. They individually have to agree to any law or agreement made in the EP. For some matters the requirement for an EU agreement is complete unanimity. In most areas there is a very high ‘qualified majority’ threshold. And yes, it may happen that a nation that (mostly) votes against the overwhelming majority still has to comply - such is democracy.

A lot of people have no desire to be governed by a body that at times puts the interests of other constituent nations before the interests and wishes of the British people.

Firstly, the entire notion of "Brits" is ridiculous: I believe you have Scots, Welsh, Norther-Irish, English and Londoners and they are totally different in their culture and even language. Still, you don't preach dissolvement of the UK, but instead cheerfully talk about "the Brits".

That's not xenophobic or having a dislike of 'Johnny Foreigner' - its simply wishing to govern ourselves.

Ay, laddy. And how about the Welsh, the Scots? And in Scotland - how about the clans, can't they decide for themselves and govern themselves? But who needs clans - can't people just decide for themselves? Actually, did you know that I'm an anarchist - and as such are all in favour of self-government? Still, any anarchist is in favour of cooperation. And cooperation sometimes involves that you put your own self-interest aside, so voluntarily give up your right on self-government. This is as simple as deciding on which side of the road one has to drive: you can be "self-governing" and end up dead, our you can adhere to the rules and laws. It's up to you.

Now I don't know about the electorate of other nations but the British people have never had the opportunity to express their democratic right and vote for political union with the EU.
That is what pisses us off.

Oh, come on, what nonsense. You had ELEVEN general elections since you joined the EU. Your bodies of Government all have MANDATES. You choose them and you did so because you had trust in them (or, the least contempt with them) A mandate is valid for a certain time period. And within their mandates, Governments are free to decide what they think is in our best interest. If you don't like it, leave the UK, as that was the cradle of this strange system. So, you had plenty of opportunity (within the Law) to express your democratic right. And you still do, hence the permanent discussion about being in the EU, the UK or in the mood. Ever heard of UKIP?

You have had your say in it allright..

As I stated in a previous post; I can actually see the benefits of some sort of Federal Europe.
But not this bloated behemoth that is riddled to the core with corruption and is blatantly pushing other agendas which may, or indeed are, detrimental to the British people.

We largely agree here: the EU should be a federation. Corruption is not a unique feature of the EU - it happens in the UK too. It should be dealt with, preferably on a European scale. Actually, the EU is a federation - as each nation still is free to decide for itself. But - as Greece showed us - it is very difficult to leave once you're in and it is very difficult to resist the wish of the majority of the European people. Still, it isn't all bad: like we as civilised people accept the rights of minorities (under the Law, of course), so the EU accepts exceptions for nations and subgroups. The Brits, for example, whom when they joined were one of the weaker states in Europe, have had special arrangements for ages. They still have their own currency, still drive on the wrong side of the road ..

you imply that 'we' wish to expel all foreigners - absolute bollocks.

I did not say anything of the kind. If you leave the EU, you will still have the very same problems you have with migrants and refugees (and the benefits of them too!), only the EU will probably close their borders to you, so the influx of British migrants onto the continent will finally stop. Did you know that most of the foreigners that work in important positions on our continent - are Brits?

Of course we have domestic issues - show me a country that doesn't.

Agreed.

You mention the benefits of being part of the EU......but there's one glaring downside to it - the standard of living of ordinary, everyday British people has decreased in real terms during this move towards political union.
I'd be a complete idiot if I was to blame EU membership solely for that....but its certainly contributed.

I believe that the choice of the British people (sigh) was to embrace capitalism over socialism. This has resulted in a wealthy "new upper class" and a poor "lower class". Thatcherism and neo-liberalism took their tolls. But it was what the Brits wanted - the EU had nothing to do with it.

At the end of the day all we want is an open and frank public discussion on all the pro's and con's of continued EU membership and then to have the opportunity to exercise our RIGHT to Self-Determination.......what exactly is wrong with that?

Nothing. I never said there was.

Every time a pro EU libitard opens there mouth I just want to leave the EU more...

originally posted by: crazyewok
Every time a pro EU libitard opens there mouth I just want to leave the EU more...

Yeah, dissemble, distract and derail.

If that's what's needed to make the case for eu membership from a supporter then it just goes to show how rotten the whole thing is.

Pardon my ignorance...

But who is this Boris person? I'd Google him, but it's more fun this way.

I've always been kind of surprised the British joined the EU...

originally posted by: seagull
Pardon my ignorance...

But who is this Boris person? I'd Google him, but it's more fun this way.

I've always been kind of surprised the British joined the EU...

He is the Mayor of lonodon. Tory, Eton toff with hair as bad as Trump.

He is a bit of a character with a very distict set of speech mannerisms.

Possible candidate to replace our PM.

A walking English sterotype is one way to put him!