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Is the 'Book of Revelation' originally a Jewish Text that was later doctored by 'Christians' ?

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posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 04:25 PM
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Is there an Embedded Jewish Text (Ur-Text) buried in the "Book of Revelation" that was later doctored by 'Christians' ?

The theory put forward by James Tabor and others before him in recent years amounts to this:

The Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite (Book of Revelation) beginning in chapter 4 was originally a Jewish Apocalyptic book (possibly dating from the time of Nero c. 67 CE) which was later doctored/commandeered by Jewish 'Christians' during the time of Domitian (c. 96 CE).

Certainly we do see a number of passages which 'interrupt the flow' of the mangled Greek of the book (some of the worst Greek in the New Testament - almost as bad as the paltry Greek in the Gospel according to 'Mark' whoever he was).

In this regard we must look carefully at the text as we have it: for an example of the 'interpolations' which were added to the UrText (original version) we have placed in brackets - this despite the warning at the end of the book that damns anyone who adds or subtracts from the text (see Rev. 22:18-19)

In the references below I have put these [Christian Additions] in brackets. This exercise strongly suggests that these are later additions to an original Jewish text inserted to “Christianize” a book that ORIGINALLY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH JESUS. This is a rather astounding phenomenon and once one sees it, then it becomes clear that the underlying original text remains intact and makes complete sense without these references:

Rev 1:1 The revelation [of Jesus Christ,] which God gave [him] to show his servants what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

2 who testified to the word of God [and to the testimony of Jesus Christ,] even to all that he saw.

3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near.

4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,

[5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood,

6 and made us to be a kingdom, priests serving his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.]

Rev 1:9 I, John, your brother who share with you [in Jesus] the persecution and the kingdom and the patient endurance, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God [and the testimony of Jesus.]

NRS Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that is prophetically known as Sodom and Egypt, [where also their Lord was crucified.]

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God [and hold the testimony of Jesus.]

Rev 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God [and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.]

Rev 17:6 And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints [and the blood of the witnesses to Jesus.] When I saw her, I was greatly amazed.

Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your comrades [who hold the testimony of Jesus.] Worship God! [For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.“]

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded [for their testimony to Jesus and] for the word of God.

The remaining references to the “Lord” or to the “Messiah,” such as those in 11:15, 12:10, and 20:6, are generic and fit easily into the thought world of generic late 2nd Temple Jewish apocalypticism - with nothing implicitly “Christian,” while the reference to “the Lamb” that is slain fits well into the generic image of the suffering “Son of Man,” returning triumphantly in the clouds of heaven, taken from Daniel 7:13-14, where it is understood to be the corporate people of the “saints of the Most High,” as well as the corporate nature of the “Suffering Servant” in the four “Servant Songs” of Isaiah (42:1-4; 49:1-6; 50:4-11; 52:13-53:12

In contrast to these references to Jesus, that so clearly exhibit a heavy hand of Christian interpolation, one finds multiple references to the YHWH El Shaddai (God Almighty) as well as “his Messiah,” (see Psalm 2) that echoes closely the language of the prophetic texts of the Hebrew Bible, and although Messianic (like the Dead Sea Scroll Covenanters) are not specifically 'Christian'.

None of these UrTexts contain explicit references to Jesus and clearly exhibit a textual integrity that reflects the language and thought world of pre-Christian thoroughly Jewish apocalypticism which is far closer to the language found in the Dead Sea Scroll corpus.:

Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the clan-god YHWH, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty One.

Rev 4:8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and inside. Day and night without ceasing they sing, “Holy, holy, holy, YHWH El Shaddai, who was and is and is to come.”

Rev 4:11 “You are worthy, Adonenu v Elohei, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”

Rev 6:10 they cried out with a loud voice, “YHWH YHWH, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?”

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the LORD of the earth.

Rev 11:17 singing, “We give you thanks, YHWH El Shaddai, who are and who were, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign.
Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb: “Great and amazing are your deeds, YHWH El Shaddai - Just and true are your ways, King of the goyim !

Rev 15:4 YHWH who will not fear and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your judgments have been revealed.”

Rev 16:7 And I heard the altar respond, “Yes, O EL YHWH El Shaddai your judgments are true and just!”
Rev 18:8 therefore her plagues will come in a single day — pestilence and mourning and famine — and she will be burned with fire; for mighty is clan-god YHWH who judges her.”

Rev 19:6 Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunder peals, crying out, “Hallelujah! For YHWH our clan god, the Almighty reigns.

Rev 21:22 I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is YHWH EL Shaddai [and the Lamb.]

Rev 22:5 And there will be no more night; they need no light of lamp or sun, for YHWH Elohim will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

Rev 22:6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true, for YHWH, the EL of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his Messenger to show his servants what must soon take place.”

The implications of this simple textual examination are quite profound. First, it appears that one can fairly easily recover a pre-Christian version of this text, more or less, with very little change to the underlying text itself.




posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 04:35 PM
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a reply to: Sigismundus

Weren't all the disciples 'Jews', after all?

At what point does one stop calling them Jews and start the name Christian?

Semantics.



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 04:52 PM
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originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Sigismundus

Weren't all the disciples 'Jews', after all?

At what point does one stop calling them Jews and start the name Christian?

Semantics.



A statement of great ignorance.



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 05:23 PM
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a reply to: Sigismundus

i kinda see a bit of sumerian mythology and zoroastrianism in some of that (i don't feel like looking for links if your that curious try looking for yourself) what does this mean in your opinion " the firstborn of the dead"



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 05:37 PM
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It is a Jewish Text for the Jews during the great tribulation. You will notice in the church letters part that Overcoming, Enduring unto the end and helping each other is part of their hope they will get God grace when Christ returns to set up the Promised Kingdom to the Jews. that is the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Was it hijacked by Christians?

Unfortunately, many do not know how to rightly divide the NT by Church, Jews and Gentiles as God did(1 Corinthians 10:32 “Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

The Church tries to make it Christians but this is clearly a Jewish book for Jews who after the Anti-Christ sits on the mercy seat in the temple in Jerusalem about half way through the Great Tribulation, are scattered abroad to finish the 70 years of punishment of them as a Nation.

They have done this because they don't rightly divide and they didn't know how else to interpret it because it just doesn't fit under the gospel of the grace of God


edit on 16-1-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 05:37 PM
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a reply to: SpongeBeard

"A statement of great ignorance."

I'd say a non-answer.

If it is ignorance, then enlighten me. Otherwise, it comes across as nothing more than hubris.



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 05:43 PM
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There are many *scientific* scholarly analysis that have postulated theories for the book of revelation.
Sir Isaac Newton put his 190 IQ to the task of cracking the code 300 years ago.
The ancient wisdom was to remain sealed till 1967 in a popular account in the book of Daniel.


After he completed his monumental Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, Newton began to devote more and more of his time to researching the Bible, eventually writing a book he believed unlocked the prophecies contained in Daniel and Revelation, two Bible books he viewed as intertwined. The great bulk of his writing went unpublished, however, even though according to one writer, Newton believed that a scientist who had the ability to explain the workings of the world and did not explain and share it with mankind, was denying God one form of adoration.


"ownership" was probably Agnostic written at a time in history before the Christian split.



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 05:45 PM
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originally posted by: SpongeBeard

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Sigismundus

Weren't all the disciples 'Jews', after all?

At what point does one stop calling them Jews and start the name Christian?

Semantics.



A statement of great ignorance.



No, not really. As I understand it, at the suggested time of writing (96 AD) the followers were still widely considered to be a Jewish sect. There was a lot of Jewish sects after all. The apocalyptic book in question would have been both contemporary (having been written only 30 years before) and 'shared' between sectarian and the then mainstream Jews.

Actually I think books outside the Torah written at the time would be considered way more sectarian than mainstream and thus might have been even more "Christian" than Jewish.



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 06:15 PM
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a reply to: Cauliflower

Setting dates seem to be a trap of most Christians and Newton was no exception . Jesus said that no man knows so at best it becomes a guessing game . God chose to be very cryptic and keep His cards close to His chest in the old testament ,so its not hard to imagine that He has done the same thing in the new . That would explain the differences of opinion when looking at the end times . Its really hard to say who's move is next but God has a plan to fulfil the time of the gentiles and so I would think that He has Satan on the ropes and waiting for the next move ...



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 06:54 PM
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As I understand it, some Kabbalistic Jews do cosider revelation scripture. Let me point out that the 666 number of a man for the beast, that man whose number was 666 is Solomon and not Nero. 3 times the old testament uses 666 and twice is with Solomon. Also the seal of Solomon is a geometric representation of 666. Now the real reason the Jews vrejected Jesus was because the Messiah they were waiting for was supposed to restore Solomonic glory. Revelation is saying whoever restores that glory to Israel is the Beast. Also Revelation never uses the word Anti Christ once, there is no the Anti Christ prophecy in fact when John uses it he says antichrists plural about people in his time.



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 07:01 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn
Jewish is a religion and nationality, its not a Jewish book, it's a book. A prophetic text for all, and not a news report of the time. It was meant for different churches in different parts but stays a relevant book because of its mysteriousness and prophecies. It's a Holy Book.



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 07:03 PM
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As I understand it, some Kabbalistic Jews do cosider revelation scripture. Let me point out that the 666 number of a man for the beast, that man whose number was 666 is Solomon and not Nero. 3 times the old testament uses 666 and twice is with Solomon. Also the seal of Solomon is a geometric representation of 666. Now the real reason the Jews vrejected Jesus was because the Messiah they were waiting for was supposed to restore Solomonic glory. Revelation is saying whoever restores that glory to Israel is the Beast. Also Revelation never uses the word Anti Christ once, there is no the Anti Christ prophecy in fact when John uses it he says antichrists plural about people in his time.



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 07:09 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

Christians didn't need to hijack it it was already theirs



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 07:10 PM
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a reply to: Gnosisisfaith

Just shows you know nothing while professing to be wise you have become a fool. the books penned by John are Jewish, the OT is Jewish, the four Gospels are Jewish, Hebrews is Jewish.

Are you Jewish?



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 07:13 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn
You try to sound smart but are unaware that no such anti Christ prophecy exists. Hmm



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 07:14 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

John was a Christian



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 07:15 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

And actulally the new testament is in greek



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 07:17 PM
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a reply to: Gnosisisfaith

So tell me what part of revelation talks about the Anti Christ?



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 07:28 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

Where is this anti Christ prophecy in Revelation you never told me. Because it doesn't exist.



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 07:33 PM
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It's a Christian book, featuring Jesus. I'd say that makes it a Christian book, you know, Christ, the Messiah?



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