Dutch town riots over asylum centre plan

a reply to: ForteanOrg

WHY is what I say a "load of empty drivel"?

Because it is totally meaningless mumbo jumbo, and you know it.

In contrast, there will be total apathy here in the US to accommodate asylum seekers in any way possible at the expense and quality of life of the tax payer. Just look at the twelve million illegals here already without nary a blink of an eye from legal citizens. 90% can't be bothered. John Q. Public can't get off the couch long enough from watching Kardashian reality shows.

originally posted by: HardBoiled
a reply to: ForteanOrgWhat about the police harassing people that call for protest. I posted the proof of this several times and you ompletely ignored it.

I certainly haven't ignored it. I simply disagree. A handful of people weren't able to contain themselves. They brought fireworks. You don't bring fireworks to a peaceful demonstration. What's the use of that, prey tell? People might get hurt. Others threw sticks and stones and bottles. What's the use of that, prey tell? People might get hurt. Also, please note that I would not have considered to put up fences or call for police assistance either for the very same reason: people might get hurt.

On the other hand: if the fences had not been there, do you think the few that were aggressive would NOT have tried to get inside the city hall? And if they had thrown their fireworks at the 300 or so that were inside the building, wouldn't you be all over this place yapping about how the weak police force of our country failed?

You can't have it both. From where I stand, all I see is unnecessary aggression.

You old hippy. Times have changed.

Well, thank you for the compliment. Yes, indeed, times have changed: we need more hippies. They were right after all, methinks. Peace, man, peace.

originally posted by: HardBoiled
a reply to: ForteanOrg

WHY is what I say a "load of empty drivel"?

Because it is totally meaningless mumbo jumbo, and you know it.

Nope, I don't. So, enlighten me, we might both learn somthing. Again you fail to provide arguments. WHY is it meaningless mumbo jumbo?

a reply to: ForteanOrg

I am refering to Dutch police monitoring Dutch citizens who call for protest on the internet, and harassing them. I posted the link twice.

Why don't you respond to my questions about your socialist party and the great things you are doing for the Dutch people. Come on now, this is the time do your little trick.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Nope, I don't. So, enlighten me, we might both learn somthing. Again you fail to provide arguments. WHY is it meaningless mumbo jumbo?

Because your little story about your definition of being an anarchist and learning to lose is just that, a humongous load of BS.

What is even the relevance besides suggesting that I should bend over and take it, it is ridiculous and exactly what is expected from someone who is boasting about his socialist party.

God you people make me sick to my stomache.

originally posted by: HardBoiled
a reply to: ForteanOrgBecause your little story about your definition of being an anarchist and learning to lose is just that, a humongous load of BS.

You don't give any arguments, simply state an opinion. If you want to teach me, so I can change my opinion, I really need arguments. If you don't want to exchange arguments then why post on ATS in the first place, I wonder..

What is even the relevance besides suggesting that I should bend over and take it, it is ridiculous and exactly what is expected from someone who is boasting about his socialist party. God you people make me sick to my stomache.

The relevance is that nobody is capable of loosing anymore. But we need the loosers just as badly as we need the winners!

As an example: say that you and I don't have sufficient money to buy a car. We decide to join funds and share the car. Now, say we both wanted to use the car next Sunday - you to drive to your granny in say Heerlen (in the south) and I to drive to Dokkum (in the north) to visit my aunt, whatever. We can't have it both ways, so we need to make arrangements. That only works if at least one of us - preferably both - are willing to LOOSE. If we are only prepared to win, we end up fighting, yelling, and hurting each other. So, what do we do? Firstly, we both explain to each other why we really need the car. The other listens and weighs the arguments. Then either of us can agree that the other has the better arguments, say I would say to you: "You're right, Boiler, my man. Your granny is terminally ill, so I dig that you need the car. I loose, it's all yours". See? The art of loosing.

If we don't come to an agreement, but we are still anarchists, we agree on a method to resolve the matter randomly. We flip a coin, do a round of paper-scissors-rock or whatever. Again, that only works if we are both prepared to loose: if we are both willing to accept the outcome, whatever it is.

So, I maintain that the art of loosing is the most important art taught by anarchists. Why anarchists: because anarchists, like no others, are opposed to violence. Violence after all is just a way to put yourself above the other without the need for arguments. Anarchists don't like to be under or over others. Equality is key. Hence: the art of loosing.

I always wonder where people's limits lie. It seems for those who welcome humans who are culturally very different to us and who belong to a religion that wan'ts to rule the world, these humans can do no harm.
It seems that everything they claim under their culture and religion can not be questioned or disliked, even if it is in direct opposition of the way of life many have fought for in the past.

So were our ancestors wrong for trying to keep their way of life?
Might as well have let the Nazi ideology in, why not? It was a cultural ideology and they wanted to make you think the same. Just like islam.

But not all muslims...

Well, not all Germans...

still, the reason we are not all speaking German right now is down to men standing up for what they believed was:

- better
- freer
- better

Nowadays the same people who think like that are not called heroes, they are called bigots and talked down.

So, what is the limit to immigrants can get away with?

At the moment anyone coming to Britain can move to an area that resembles their home more than the UK. No need for integration. And the more enclaves like that exist, the more they want extra rights; and I mean extra right on top of existing laws of the land.

For some people that is already their limit. Yet there are people who are ok with that.

I just wonder [and this is extremely serious, so no flippant answers], what would happen if muslims want to change our way of life because they are constantly offended by us? Would that be a limit?
When does appeasement become self destruction?

Why is it so wrong to be proud enough of our own heritage to ask those that want to live among us to join the freedom and our laws and thoroughly embrace our culture.
Unfortunately with islam the problem is that muslims do not have allegiance to countries but to religion. Therefore it may be difficult to understand that our way of life is different by country.

By deliberately keeping themselves separate, they can not even learn to understand how and why we are the way we are.
I lived in three countries, all for a long time and wherever I lived, I immersed myself into the culture, adopted it and was happy to belong to these countries.

I think those 'riots' are not only overdue but still on the harmless side. What on earth are people who disagree with the leftist open arms policy supposed to do?

We asked, we made petitions, we stood silently protesting, all just to be ignored. Why? Because it is easy to ignore.
Now people crank it up a notch and everyone has their knickers in a twist instead of thinking that other people also have valid points, even if they are different from yours.

We need to be prouder with immigrants, we need to make them sit through language classes, attend history and cultural classes and teach them the most important laws.

That's not racist or bigot or whatever some may throw around rather immaturely. It is called being adult and wanting to keep our ideals in our countries.

What is your limit, where you say enough is enough, do you even have one or do you hate the whole of Europe so much [racist!] that you don't give a s_it about OUR heritage [bigot]?

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Ok loser, now are you going to tell me what you and your party are doing to mobilise people, and for what cause. What's the problem? Can't back up your promises Mr anarchist slash politician?

How very surprising.

Any thoughts on the blatant disrespect for the freedom of speech and the right to call for protest, by the police, harassing people who do so on the internet?

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
Indeed. Alas, mostly not by the police, but by the braindead fools that carry heavy-duty fireworks and bring stones and bottles to make their point.

Your view is very jaded here. Like I said, the media focuses on the violence time and time again. It works so good that intelligent people like you come out saying their own countrymen are brain-dead for standing up for their rights. If those were "heavy-duty fireworks" we would've seen some feet or other appendages flying through the air. It's december, offcourse people carry fireworks around in Holland. Bottles and stones I'm thinking they didn't bring all the way there from home... Stay focused and please watch the video if you haven't.

I have been (and will be) involved with socialist politics in my country and I can assure you that at least "my" party is trying everything they can to mobilise the population. But it proves to be harder and harder. In the 1980s we had hundreds of thousands of people marching to The Hague to protest against cruise missiles. Nowadays, you're happy with 5000, and the problems we have today are far worse than in the 1980s.

Most of our people still have an opinion, but they now type it in into a browser window.

I agree for the part that a lot of people take to the internet. That doesn't mean they're any harder to mobilize though, if you're not mobilising them in the name of a political party that is. Last year we have seen the biggest protests in Belgium since 1996 so I do disagree with your notion.

Can you give me some examples of those limitations? I am simply curious, as I am not aware of any laws in at least my country (The Netherlands) that restrict the right to strike.

Here's a couple links that will explain it more.

www.knack.be...

www.dewereldmorgen.be...

“Er is ook een onrustwekkende evolutie bezig om zowat alle vormen van sociale actie te gaan criminaliseren. De laatste jaren werd een heel arsenaal aan wetten ingezet om het recht op betogen – een essentiële vorm van vrije meningsuiting – vervolgbaar te maken. De GAS-boetes worden voor zowat alles gebruikt dat de democratische rechten inperkt. Als je alleen nog manifestaties kan houden die minstens 6 weken op voorhand zijn aangekondigd, kunnen snelle reacties op acute mistoestanden niet meer.” “Het systeem van de GAS-boetes legt de last voor juridisch verweer volledig bij de vervolgde persoon. Men kan veroordeeld worden voor het uiten van een mening 'waaruit afgeleid kan worden dat men voorstander zou kunnen zijn van gewelddadige acties....' Een dergelijk systeem in handen van een overheid met een politieke agenda leidt naar volledige criminalisering van sociale actie. Kijk hoe men de aardappelactivisten heeft aangepakt, op basis van 'bendevorming'.”

GAS-Fines are the new (reworked from their older conception in 1999) thing since 2013. They basically make it possible for each village or city to make up their own fines using their own views on what is a "nuisance to the public". We've had fines for kids eating their lunch on the outside stairs of a museum, GAS-fines for protesting GAS-fines, the list is absurd, take a look at these

My apologies for not translating things to english but if need be I will if asked.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

So, I maintain that the art of loosing is the most important art taught by anarchists. Why anarchists: because anarchists, like no others, are opposed to violence. Violence after all is just a way to put yourself above the other without the need for arguments.

Yet you have no problem with riot police slapping away at concerned citizens, men, women who just stood there in protest.

And how does your "learning to lose" nonsense equate to this thread?

You are obviously suggesting that I should accept the situation for what it is and shut up.

I see no other way to interprete your drivel.

Fat chance of that happening.

originally posted by: Hecate666I just wonder [and this is extremely serious, so no flippant answers], what would happen if muslims want to change our way of life because they are constantly offended by us? Would that be a limit? When does appeasement become self destruction?

Thank you for your post, which is refreshing as it at least contains some doubt. The art of loosing again

I'm not really worried, actually. We will find our way out, as we always did. In the end we will have a few new holidays on our list, some new food on our tables, some customs we did not have before, while we dropped a few that we had. Some of our Laws will change, it's not that they have stayed fixed ever since the foundation of our nations..

It's what has always happened - the US and EU are melting pots of nations and cultures - and will remain happening unless we have one world with one culture and one people - and we're not there by a far stretch yet. In the meantime we need to keep talking, talking, talking, learn to respect each other and gradually improve upon ourselves. The only difference being that it all speeds up enormeously due to the Internet, the open borders and all that.

It are indeed exciting times.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Which socialist party are you active in and what are you doing to mobilise people, and for what cause. Why are you not responding?

Way to represent your party. What is holding you back?

a reply to: ForteanOrg

I'm not really worried, actually. We will find our way out, as we always did. In the end we will have a few new holidays on our list, some new food on our tables, some customs we did not have before, while we dropped a few that we had. Some of our Laws will change, it's not that they have stayed fixed ever since the foundation of our nations..

It's what has always happened - the US and EU are melting pots of nations and cultures - and will remain happening unless we have one world with one culture and one people - and we're not there by a far stretch yet. In the meantime we need to keep talking, talking, talking, learn to respect each other and gradually improve upon ourselves. The only difference being that it all speeds up enormeously due to the Internet, the open borders and all that.

Please take note of the blatant NWO ideology displayed here.

How is this man not an enemy of the traditional people of Europe and their cutures.

It is sickening to the core.

The nonchalance with which he speaks about the dismantling of traditional cultures and society.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Thank you for your post, which is refreshing as it at least contains some doubt. The art of loosing again I'm not really worried, actually. We will find our way out, as we always did. In the end we will have a few new holidays on our list, some new food on our tables, some customs we did not have before, while we dropped a few that we had. Some of our Laws will change, it's not that they have stayed fixed ever since the foundation of our nations.. It's what has always happened - the US and EU are melting pots of nations and cultures - and will remain happening unless we have one world with one culture and one people - and we're not there by a far stretch yet. In the meantime we need to keep talking, talking, talking, learn to respect each other and gradually improve upon ourselves. The only difference being that it all speeds up enormeously due to the Internet, the open borders and all that. It are indeed exciting times.

I think you have just confirmed everything that Hectate666 feels we should be fighting against. In fact, I find what you said very alarming.

The US and UK are not melting pots. The US and UK did not become soup, if anything they are stews. If we had become the soup that was dreamed off, we wouldn't have to worry about the name of the soup changing.

Right now we have a fair enough balance of each item for it to be identified as a smorgasbord stew. Add too much beef, potatoes or chicken, and well.....

Most people don't want the laws changed to favor a culture that they don't embrace, and I have to admit that I am one of them. If I go to your country, I adhere to your laws, especially if I decide I want to become a citizen of your country.

If you despise the lifestyle and the laws of a country, the answer is not to immigrate and change within, that is not called assimilation, that is called invasion.

originally posted by: HardBoiled
a reply to: ForteanOrgYet you have no problem with riot police slapping away at concerned citizens, men, women who just stood there in protest.

Actually, I am opposed to violence, period. So, if a police officer hurts a citizen, I'm opposed to that too. However, as things are now, our police is entitled to use force - by Law. Actually, they have a real legal monopoly on it. This gives them great responsibility and yes, you should question every instance in which they have used their monopoly.

You do, and that's good, but simply observing that you think something went wrong will not help. A formal complaint needs to be issued. Get the violated together, get evidence, seek attention of the press (that won't be difficult..) and go to Court. That's how you fight in a democracy. And believe me, I know of plenty of police officers that overstepped the line and were removed from the force - mostly because civilians filed a complaint. It works.

And how does your "learning to lose" nonsense equate to this thread?

I will ignore the bias and answer the question: it relates to this thread because I assume that you're in here to convince others of the correctness of your views on the events. I am one of these "others". To convince me, you need arguments. And we both need to be willilng to accept that the other may have arguments that are correct and if they conflict with our previous insights, we stand corrected - we loose. Actually, we'd be gaining by loosing, but let's not go there now, it may confuse us

You are obviously suggesting that I should accept the situation for what it is and shut up.

Of course not. I don't like what happened in Geldermalsen either and if injustice was done it should be dealt with.

As you probably know, it often takes time, but in the end we saw a number of Dutch politicians being removed from office because they misjudged a situation. This may well happen to the major of Geldermalsen or even to the responsible Minister / secretary of State. But it will not happen if you simply give an opinion in here...

You are free to use me as your sparring partner, I will be prepared to loose, but only if you come with sufficient arguments. You might even be good at it, at this "game" of debating, seeking action, accepting your losses - in which case i might suggest you join the ranks of the Socialist Party and help others to defend their rights

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Of course not. I don't like what happened in Geldermalsen either and if injustice was done it should be dealt with.

So in what case, relevant to this thread, should I learn to lose then? Please spell it out for me because sofar it is still totally meaningless.

And again, you refuse to expand on the claims you made about your socialist party and your active membership of it.

Why the silence if you are doing so much great work? You can't even give one example.

a reply to: HardBoiled

Please take note of the blatant NWO ideology displayed here. How is this man not an enemy of the traditional people of Europe and their cutures. It is sickening to the core. The nonchalance with which he speaks about the dismantling of traditional cultures and society.

I have not really been paying much attention to the feud the two of you have been having, but I have to admit that I do find their post very alarming.

I don't know exactly what they meant with the, post and I don't want to jump to conclusion because, simple words without benefit of knowing the individual, or being able to pick up on the nuances of face, body language and demeanor, puts me a great disadvantage.

So I will have to hold off on making an absolute decision about the content, but it is disturbing because it does seem to give great credulity to all of those that are anti-Islam, and the survivalist logic of keeping Islam out of their country.

People should also take note that of the 5 allegedly representative "real" Dutchmen that entered this thread with loud opposition to my view, at least 4 of them displayed a severe lack of interest in conservation of traditional Dutch culture and population, or raher a complete disregard, or rather complete opposition.

originally posted by: HardBoiled
a reply to: ForteanOrg

Which socialist party are you active in and what are you doing to mobilise people, and for what cause. Why are you not responding?

Way to represent your party. What is holding you back?

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