Downed Russian SU-24 black box first information

a reply to: tanka418

"russian planes without any identifications " -- actually that is wholly untrue. All Russian military planes are clearly marked.

Russia has been known to send in unmarked military units to do their bidding...remember Crimea.

a reply to: sosobad

Here is Jonathan (Jo) Gillespie's profile on LinkedIn

Problem is there is nothing on his profile that uses the name Jonathan only Jo, that is even from his own page here where he is employed...

www.gatesaviation.com...

So other than you saying his name is Jonathan where is there anything that backs your claim this is the man?

As for Liu Chang Wei...can't seem to find anything about this Chinese aviation expert, interesting.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: tanka418

"russian planes without any identifications " -- actually that is wholly untrue. All Russian military planes are clearly marked.

Russia has been known to send in unmarked military units to do their bidding...remember Crimea.

Yeah...I remember Crimea...

That was where you and a few other Putin haters said quite a lot about Russia, Putin, and other, but never did provide anything that vaguely resembled evidence of reality, or truth.

So...please take your made-up hearsay and place it where the Sun doesn't shine...at least until you have real evidence.

Oh, by the way; the US military have and use what is termed "low visibility" insignia for aircraft and other equipment...Russia doesn't seem to have that yet.

a reply to: tanka418

That was where you and a few other Putin haters said quite a lot about Russia, Putin, and other, but never did provide anything that vaguely resembled evidence of reality, or truth.

So...please take your made-up hearsay and place it where the Sun doesn't shine...at least until you have real evidence.

Nothing to see here. Move along....

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: tanka418

That was where you and a few other Putin haters said quite a lot about Russia, Putin, and other, but never did provide anything that vaguely resembled evidence of reality, or truth.

So...please take your made-up hearsay and place it where the Sun doesn't shine...at least until you have real evidence.

Nothing to see here. Move along....

You are right...nothing to see here!

So what is that anyway Seriously, I could manufacture that image in a couple of hours with Poser Pro...

Also, three unidentified figures are a far cry from a SU-24...

So...please, don't dishonor yourselves with lame crap like that, and show REAL evidence...or keep your peace.

a reply to: tanka418

So what is that anyway Seriously, I could manufacture that image in a couple of hours with Poser Pro...

Also, three unidentified figures are a far cry from a SU-24...

So...please, don't dishonor yourselves with lame crap like that, and show REAL evidence...or keep your peace.

Are you calling Vladimir Putin a liar?

Russian President Vladimir Putin has acknowledged that Russian troops were present in Crimea before the referendum and argued that was necessary to let Crimeans make the choice on the future of the region.

The armed men in military uniform without insignia, dubbed “the little green men” or “the polite people,” who were present in Crimea before and during the referendum there, were Russian troops, Vladimir Putin acknowledged speaking at a Q&A session with on Thursday. The president said he never concealed the fact from his foreign counterparts, and explained to them that it was the only way to ensure the referendum on the region’s status would be carried out peacefully.

An "unimpeachable" source.

a reply to: DJW001

That wasn't even a clever job of deflection...


But, we aren't talking about men in Crimea, we are talking about allegedly unmarked military aircraft in Syria. Something you haven't addressed...

So...as I've already said twice; Real evidence! Do you have any? or is this a typical argument of yours...no foundation, no evidence.


If we try, for a moment, to return at least closer to the original topic we find that Turkey was entirely unjustified in their action against Russia, and that shooting down the SU-24 was not only a criminal act, but an act of war as well. We should all be thankful that Putin has more intelligence and restraint than Turkey and NATO.

a reply to: tanka418

But, we aren't talking about men in Crimea, we are talking about allegedly unmarked military aircraft in Syria. Something you haven't addressed...

I never said anything about unmarked Aircraft in Syria. At the speed combat jets travel today, warpaint is irrelevant; aircraft are identified by transponders. If an aircraft enters an airspace with a transponder that does not register as a friendly aircraft, it is potentially an enemy aircraft.

Why did you bring up the possibility that the photograph of the Russian special forces soldiers without insignia was "fake?" It was not, and Vladimir the Great himself affirmed that. Of course, troops without proper insignia are in violation of the Geneva Conventions, but the Russian Federation is not a signatory, so what difference does it make? Why so defensive?

originally posted by: DJW001

I never said anything about unmarked Aircraft in Syria. At the speed combat jets travel today, warpaint is irrelevant; aircraft are identified by transponders. If an aircraft enters an airspace with a transponder that does not register as a friendly aircraft, it is potentially an enemy aircraft.

Hmmmmm, perhaps you should pay attention. At the top of the page, from tsurfer2000h where I mention specifically military aircraft, and he obfuscates it to equipment. Course then, you changed it to men; we are talking about aircraft here, not people.

Why did you bring up the possibility that the photograph of the Russian special forces soldiers without insignia was "fake?" It was not, and Vladimir the Great himself affirmed that. Of course, troops without proper insignia are in violation of the Geneva Conventions, but the Russian Federation is not a signatory, so what difference does it make? Why so defensive?

Not being defensive...just pointing out that that image has no identifying attributes in it. It is literally and image I can manufacture in a couple of hours. Course then again, I could do a search for "Texas Militia" and get images that could pass for your claim.

The point is...your statement and supporting data have no substance...the only thing you have going for you is Putin admitting to it. There is no surprise there. But as you pointed out; Russia is not a signatory... as a result they are not obligated to live to your artificial standards. No, the objection here is that you frequently make statements that have no foundation, and then expect "evidence" such as you have provided here to be accepted.

On the other hand, at times you can be rather insightful.

Oh and by the way; I know I'm a "male donkey".

ETA: Lest I forget...Thank you for making my point...that the aircraft did, indeed, have identification.

a reply to: tanka418

The point is...your statement and supporting data have no substance...the only thing you have going for you is Putin admitting to it.

Thank you for admitting that Putin's word is meaningless. Merry Christmas!

a reply to: DJW001

I like the way how the usual suspects 'accidentially' forget to tell the whole story and focus on this Russian support instead, as requested by Crimean officials btw.

Crimean prime minister Anatolii Mohyliov said that his government recognised the new provisional government in Kiev, and that the Crimean autonomous government would carry out all laws passed by the Ukrainian parliament.[72] In Simferopol, a pro-Euromaidan rally of between 5,000–15,000 was held in support of the new government, and demanding the resignation of the Crimean parliament; attendees waved Ukrainian, Tatar, and European Union flags

And:

Both Aksyonov and speaker Vladimir Konstantinov stated that they viewed Viktor Yanukovych as the de jure president of Ukraine, through whom they were able to ask Russia for assistance.

en.wikipedia.org...

Yes I can see why the Crimean gov. asked for Russian help.
Hence this little green talking point is utter redundant and completely OT, but that's just me being in my head.



Too add...

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — The work of Russian experts on decoding the flight recorder from the Su-24 warplane downed by Turkey appears transparent and professional, Gates Aviation Limited CEO Emma Farrant said Friday.
"Capt [Jonathan] Gillespie attended at the invitation of the Russian Federal Air Transport Agency as an independent international observer," Farrant told RIA Novosti.
"At present we don’t know whether Capt Gillespie of Gates Aviation Limited will play any further part in this as an independent observer. As for how the investigation was conducted it appeared very competent, professional and entirely transparent," she said.

sputniknews.com...

Sputnik again, having a hard time to find reports in our free press. Absolute silence in the German Paperwood.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: tanka418

The point is...your statement and supporting data have no substance...the only thing you have going for you is Putin admitting to it.

Thank you for admitting that Putin's word is meaningless. Merry Christmas!

Yes, however, in that regard he is no better, no worse than any of the other "world leaders".

They all do what they believe is necessary for their respective countries...some of them actually have their countries best interests in mind...

It is going to become very interesting around Mosul NeXT week some time. The Iraqi government have decided to retake Mosul as soon as they have taken Ramadi.

What is going to be interesting is how this will effect Turkey and their Peshmerga fighters.

According to Turkey. Turkey also want to take Mosul from ISIS controll.

I think this event might be a eye opener for some People here. We will see if Turkey will help the Iraqi government do this job.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

I like the way how the usual suspects 'accidentially' forget to tell the whole story and focus on this Russian support instead, as requested by Crimean officials btw.

I was just reminding someone that Russia does indeed use troops without insignia, as admitted by Putin. What else is there to say, given that Ukraine is off topic?

Yes I can see why the Crimean gov. asked for Russian help.

Because they had no choice. But this is off topic.

Hence this little green talking point is utter redundant and completely OT, but that's just me being in my head.

No, the justifications and rationalizations for Russia's violation of Ukrainian sovereignty are off topic. The fact that Russia has been known not to identify its combatants in accord with the Geneva Conventions is, but only insofar as some people think it matters that the defending jets needed to positively identify the jet that was entering its airspace.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — The work of Russian experts on decoding the flight recorder from the Su-24 warplane downed by Turkey appears transparent and professional, Gates Aviation Limited CEO Emma Farrant said Friday.

Sputnik again, having a hard time to find reports in our free press. Absolute silence in the German Paperwood.

That's because there is nothing to report yet; the investigators admit that the data is corrupt and proves nothing, one way or the other. On the other hand, Russia feels compelled to keep reminding the world that the investigation is being followed by impartial observers. A reader with a grasp of subtlety will notice the absence of the phrase "downed over Syrian territory."

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

If you are too thick to see how Jonathan can't be shortened to JO I can't really help you. That is a pretty weak argument.

a reply to: DJW001

I was just reminding someone that Russia does indeed use troops without insignia

And the US dont. Are you telling me that US SF dont take of their marks/insignia when they go on special missions?

Than i Guess we just have to take Your Word for it.

originally posted by: DJW001
I was just reminding someone that Russia does indeed use troops without insignia, as admitted by Putin. What else is there to say, given that Ukraine is off topic?

It is incredible how you seem to have completely missed the point.

Its not so much that Ukraine is off topic; but very much more like "troops" were. You see, we weren't talking about "troops" bur rather Russian aircraft.

The whole thing was in reference to a claim that Russia was using unmarked/unidentified aircraft; which was/is wholly untrue.

And, just because the black box is unusable...doesn't seem to be any reason to just forget the whole thing. There is plenty of other data, all quite viable...that the black box would only confirm. It is very doubtful that the black box contains additional information that is "critical" to analysis.

In other words; we can use existing data and learn just as much, and not sacrifice validity.

But, unfortunately, that other data...shows that Turkey "screwed the pooch" here, and that Russia is innocent of wrong doing.

Turkey committed an act of aggression against Russia, and the big bad Bear let it slide (so far)...guess Russia and Putin aren't as evil as you try to make out.

a reply to: tanka418

And you are missing several points:

1. Planes are identified by transponders, not insignia.
2. It doesn't matter whether the plane was marked, the question is whether it had a transponder.
3. Russia has not provided any actual data, just drawings.
4. Turkey has provided its own drawings which contradict the Russian ones.
5. By entering Turkish airspace after Turkey specifically declared it off limits, Russia was committing an act of aggression.
6. Two young Russian men died because Vladimir Putin wanted to prove a point.

originally posted by: tanka418

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: tanka418

"russian planes without any identifications " -- actually that is wholly untrue. All Russian military planes are clearly marked.

Russia has been known to send in unmarked military units to do their bidding...remember Crimea.

Yeah...I remember Crimea...

That was where you and a few other Putin haters said quite a lot about Russia, Putin, and other, but never did provide anything that vaguely resembled evidence of reality, or truth.

???

You do realize that Russian families had their sons and brothers arrive home in body bags...all the while Putin threatened them with arrest and imprisonment if they asked questions...

Families demand answers over deaths and disappearances of troops thought to have been fighting in neighbouring Ukraine.

www.theguardian.com...

Russian soldier’s mother nearly faints, then demands to know why he was in Ukraine
www.washingtonpost.com... 2962a9150c_story.html

Over 100 Russian Soldiers killed in Ukraine while Putin continues to deny Russian involvement
www.washingtonpost.com... 2962a9150c_story.html

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: tanka418

And you are missing several points:

No...I don't think I've missed anything here, although it seems that you might try to twist things to make it appear that way.

1. Planes are identified by transponders, not insignia.
2. It doesn't matter whether the plane was marked, the question is whether it had a transponder.

That was kind of my point. That the aircraft were indeed identified...and I can assure you that Russian military planes have transponders. You know; so that the Russian IFF works and they don't shoot down their own planes...

3. Russia has not provided any actual data, just drawings.
4. Turkey has provided its own drawings which contradict the Russian ones.

Yep...just drawings; based on real world data. Though, I guessing, that because it doesn't meet your standards that the Turkish "drawing" is valid, and the Russian one isn't. Much data prejudice?

No, the reality is that we can use the "drawings" as a replacement for the missing black box data...which could only confirm, or deny, which "drawing" is the most accurate.

5. By entering Turkish airspace after Turkey specifically declared it off limits, Russia was committing an act of aggression.

Sorry man, but the data really does indicate that Russia never violated Turkish airspace. And, even IF we decide to use the bogus Turkish data, it still indicates that Turkey was the illegal aggressor here...

6. Two young Russian men died because Vladimir Putin wanted to prove a point.

Nope! That is entirely on Erdog(an)

You should actually look at and make an attempt to understand the existing data.

For instance; the Turkish data shows the F-16 firing on the Russian at a distance of around 10 miles, and the subsequent 40+ seconds of missile flight to the SU-24. The problem is the AIM-9x missile only has about 35 - 38 seconds of fuel. Those last few miles were either pure fabrication, or the luckiest "hail Mary" shot in military aviation history.

The Russian "drawing" resolves all of the missile flight issues...unfortunately is also places the F-16 in Syrian air.

I'm basing my conclusions on the mathematics, the probabilities of these things. Turkey relies way too much on an almost impossible shot to work. Thus; the Turkish data is a fabrication, that is easy to demonstrate. The Russian data relies on Turkey doing exactly what we might expect Turkey to do; cross into Syrian air to commit an act of aggression.

If you would simply apply a little logic you can easily understand; course that also means you have to drop your anti-Russian bias.