Downed Russian SU-24 black box first information

originally posted by: tanka418

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: tanka418

Since when is a bombing run considered innocent passage?

Since the bombing run wasn't in or against , or, involving Turkey (with the exception of a less than 2 mile wide appendage, where no bombs were dropped)

These russian planes without any identifications on them were bombing the area for several days already.
You really are knitpicking; these planes were on a bombing mission . They were bombing innocent civilians who were con content being ruled by Asad & Co + Ba'ath Party .



To all of y'all...if you decide to ignore the available data; that's on you. However, please don't try to force your uninformed, unsubstantiated opinion on everyone. Stick to and use the available data (not your opinion about the players).

Your use of available data [from the blackbox alone ] misleads the reader imho.

a reply to: sosobad

So who are...

Liu Chang Wei from China and Jonathan Gillespie from the United Kingdom,

These two people are the only foreign "experts" involved in these findings. So who are they and are they really experts? What independent organisations do they support?

If the Russian's want legitimacy then they should at least be a bit more open?

originally posted by: 23432
These russian planes without any identifications on them were bombing the area for several days already.
You really are knitpicking; these planes were on a bombing mission . They were bombing innocent civilians who were con content being ruled by Asad & Co + Ba'ath Party .

"russian planes without any identifications " -- actually that is wholly untrue. All Russian military planes are clearly marked.

Your use of available data [from the blackbox alone ] misleads the reader imho.

I'm not using black box data...remember, the black box was unreadable! I'm using data released by Turkey and Russia. Comparing the two datasets to see which one is the most logical, practical, probable...it is almost a mathematical exercise...you wouldn't understand that I suppose.

But, it works out like this; which of the two datasets can be real. By evaluating the timing, distances, speeds, etc. it should be (and is) possible to determine which one is true.

It appears that Turkey was lying. You see; IF Turkey used an AIM-9x missile, then it would not have reached the Russian plane where it is said to. And, IF Turkey used an AIM-120 missile, then the whole event occurred while the Russian plane was within Syrian Airspace.

a reply to: paraphi

Here is Jonathan (Jo) Gillespie's profile on LinkedIn

www.linkedin.com...

Ats is getting worse, people are sitting at computers with Google and then request other people find information for them. I'll let you find Liu Changwei for yourself to see if you can manage it

originally posted by: tanka418

originally posted by: 23432
These russian planes without any identifications on them were bombing the area for several days already.
You really are knitpicking; these planes were on a bombing mission . They were bombing innocent civilians who were con content being ruled by Asad & Co + Ba'ath Party .

"russian planes without any identifications " -- actually that is wholly untrue. All Russian military planes are clearly marked.

Your use of available data [from the blackbox alone ] misleads the reader imho.

I'm not using black box data...remember, the black box was unreadable! I'm using data released by Turkey and Russia. Comparing the two datasets to see which one is the most logical, practice, probable...it is almost a mathematical exercise...you wouldn't understand that I suppose.

But, it works out like this; which of the two datasets can be real. By evaluating the timing, distances, speeds, etc. it should be (and is) possible to determine which one is true.

It appears that Turkey was lying. You see; IF Turkey used an AIM-9x missile, then it would not have reached the Russian plane where it is said to. And, IF Turkey used an AIM-120 missile, then the whole event occurred while the Russian plane was within Syrian Airspace.

If Turks are lying to what purpose ?

Turks are the party which have suffered the same crime by the same planes who carried NO IDENTIFICATION.

You are saying that on the day Turks shot the plane , plane was not in Turkish airspace .

Are you also disputing the previous occurences of same violations ?

Clearly the Turks are the injured party here for all intend and purposes .

I give the benefit of the doubt to Turks not the Russians .

You seems to want a make a case that the Turks had no reason to shoot at these planes .

Why ?

Turks clearly & Lawfully & Legally have given advice to all concerned parties , including the Russians.

Are you saying Turks made a mistake that these planes didn't cross the border on the day there were shot at ?

One of your presumptions is that the Russians wouldn't fake information.

Why would you think that ?

originally posted by: 23432

If Turks are lying to what purpose ?

That is not contained in the dataset.

Turks are the party which have suffered the same crime by the same planes who carried NO IDENTIFICATION.

Actually man...I don't believe that you don't know that the aircraft necessarily have identification; thus, I consider this a rather bold faced lie!

You are saying that on the day Turks shot the plane , plane was not in Turkish airspace .

To be clear: At the moment that the missile was launched, the Turkish pilot knew the Russian plane was in Syrian Airspace. He also knew that the missile impact would be in Syrian Airspace.

Are you also disputing the previous occurences of same violations ?

While these would be irrelevant, no I do not dispute them.

Clearly the Turks are the injured party here for all intend and purposes .

Actually it was the Russians who were harmed here...they are the victims of this crime. Turkey would be the perpetrator.

You seems to want a make a case that the Turks had no reason to shoot at these planes .


Why ?

I'm a fan of truth!

Turks clearly & Lawfully & Legally have given advice to all concerned parties , including the Russians.

Are you saying Turks made a mistake that these planes didn't cross the border on the day there were shot at ?

In as much as the analysis of the two datasets indicates that the Russian version is more probably more true than the Turkish version; I'm saying that Turkey deliberately crossed the Syrian border with their F-16's, pursued the Russian plane, and with malice, fired upon it with the intent of shooting it down...a clear criminal act.

One of your presumptions is that the Russians wouldn't fake information.

Why would you think that ?

You are presuming wrong...I've made no such presumptuous error...I'm basing everything on an analysis of released data. I'm using mathematics, science (physics), to determine which data set has the highest probability of being true.

IF Russia "faked" their data...they did a far superior job of it than Turkey did.

a reply to: Ploutonas


The Turish radar show only the second bomb run. Not the first one. And it does not show the Complete plot where the F-16s that attaked the SUs were. The radar image only show two different F-16s (probably support). These two flew in a stright line twoards the location Close to the Syrian boarder and where the other two F-16 were hiding at lower altitude. Thes Two F-16s came in late and could not have tageted the the SU 24s.

- The second red plot (smal radius) is not the SUs. The SUs flew the exact same plot two times.

The Russian jet was shot down because the Turkish Presidents son was leading anti assad forces protecting an oil shipment they sold to Turkey from Isis that was going into Turkey. The russians were bombing the rebel leaders position and he called dad and had the plane shot down. Thats the story. We give the rebels guns, the rebels give the guns to Isis for oil and sell it to Turkey to buy even more guns and equipment.

originally posted by: texasyeti
The Russian jet was shot down because the Turkish Presidents son was leading anti assad forces protecting an oil shipment they sold to Turkey from Isis that was going into Turkey. The russians were bombing the rebel leaders position and he called dad and had the plane shot down. Thats the story. We give the rebels guns, the rebels give the guns to Isis for oil and sell it to Turkey to buy even more guns and equipment.

That came a bit later. Russia were attacking the Turkman rebels about about 3 km from the Trukish boarder. Russia had been doing that for about 7 or 8 days. Russia also did a ground attack With Russian forces "only" against these Turkman rebels. One of the first Russian only ground attack in Syria. There should be a News article about this somewhere on the nett?? This was probably a VIP target that might have been important to Turkey or the Turkman rebels. Personaly i think that ground operation trigger the Turks to attack the Russian SUs. I am not sure......

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: texasyeti
The Russian jet was shot down because the Turkish Presidents son was leading anti assad forces protecting an oil shipment they sold to Turkey from Isis that was going into Turkey. The russians were bombing the rebel leaders position and he called dad and had the plane shot down. Thats the story. We give the rebels guns, the rebels give the guns to Isis for oil and sell it to Turkey to buy even more guns and equipment.

That came a bit later. Russia were attacking the Turkman rebels about about 3 km from the Trukish boarder. Russia had been doing that for about 7 or 8 days. Russia also did a ground attack With Russian forces "only" against these Turkman rebels. One of the first Russian only ground attack in Syria. There should be a News article about this somewhere on the nett?? This was probably a VIP target that might have been important to Turkey or the Turkman rebels. Personaly i think that ground operation trigger the Turks to attack the Russian SUs. I am not sure......

I thought the US found computer data on the oil trade between the Turks and Isis businessmen and state officials in May. It also showed the Turkaman were helping and even ISIS defectors have said they could travel freely amongst the Turkaman and into Turkey.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: texasyeti
The Russian jet was shot down because the Turkish Presidents son was leading anti assad forces protecting an oil shipment they sold to Turkey from Isis that was going into Turkey. The russians were bombing the rebel leaders position and he called dad and had the plane shot down. Thats the story. We give the rebels guns, the rebels give the guns to Isis for oil and sell it to Turkey to buy even more guns and equipment.

That came a bit later. Russia were attacking the Turkman rebels about about 3 km from the Trukish boarder. Russia had been doing that for about 7 or 8 days. Russia also did a ground attack With Russian forces "only" against these Turkman rebels. One of the first Russian only ground attack in Syria. There should be a News article about this somewhere on the nett?? This was probably a VIP target that might have been important to Turkey or the Turkman rebels. Personaly i think that ground operation trigger the Turks to attack the Russian SUs. I am not sure......

I thought the US found computer data on the oil trade between the Turks and Isis businessmen and state officials in May. It also showed the Turkaman were helping and even ISIS defectors have said they could travel freely amongst the Turkaman and into Turkey.

Could be i am not really to informed about this event. The Turkish Peshmergas have been the hot topick this week.

Russia have done two ground attack in total. One just South of Idlib. The firsat one was done 1 km South of Nibh Almur (There should be publick information about it on the nett???) Very Close to the Tukish boarder crossing. This was monitored by US drones who have been flying in that air Space since Russia started their campain. It was also confirmed at the debreif With Norwegian SF in Bergen. (The US have had two drones flying in that air Space since the Russian campain).


EDIT:

AS far as i know. Norway are the first to speak about how the Oil trade is conducted between ISIS and Turkey???
But that is only according to Our media in Norway...

The Us are now restoring a air Field in Syria that has not been in servise since 2010. This has not been mentioned at all in Our media. If it was it would have been breaking News in this site.

The airbase is located Southeast of the town of Rmelan (Abu Hajar airfield) which is controled by the Kurdish People’s Defense Units (YPG).

I Wonder how the Russians will respond to this move. The US are also doing this without Assads concent..... I gues when this will be known to the Public throught the media. It will go something like this.... Its on behalf of the UN aid to the Syrian People. Because the UN are now going to start to transport aid to the Syrian People without the concent from Assad.

originally posted by: spy66
The Us are now restoring a air Field in Syria that has not been in servise since 2010. This has not been mentioned at all in Our media. If it was it would have been breaking News in this site.

The airbase is located Southeast of the town of Rmelan (Abu Hajar airfield) which is controled by the Kurdish People’s Defense Units (YPG).

I Wonder how the Russians will respond to this move. The US are also doing this without Assads concent..... I gues when this will be known to the Public throught the media. It will go something like this.... Its on behalf of the UN aid to the Syrian People. Because the UN are now going to start to transport aid to the Syrian People without the concent from Assad.

Russia is part of the deal. The US did a 180 after their plane was shot down. They agreed Assad can go after the conflict is over. But that vaccum would be too destructive without something in place. The UN and Russia have agreed to work together with the US.
www.bbc.com...

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: spy66
The Us are now restoring a air Field in Syria that has not been in servise since 2010. This has not been mentioned at all in Our media. If it was it would have been breaking News in this site.

The airbase is located Southeast of the town of Rmelan (Abu Hajar airfield) which is controled by the Kurdish People’s Defense Units (YPG).

I Wonder how the Russians will respond to this move. The US are also doing this without Assads concent..... I gues when this will be known to the Public throught the media. It will go something like this.... Its on behalf of the UN aid to the Syrian People. Because the UN are now going to start to transport aid to the Syrian People without the concent from Assad.

Russia is part of the deal. The US did a 180 after their plane was shot down. They agreed Assad can go after the conflict is over. But that vaccum would be too destructive without something in place. The UN and Russia have agreed to work together with the US.
www.bbc.com...

It is my understanding; that was Russia's plan all along.

a reply to: luthier



Maybe....? the bbc article never actually mentioned anything about the Activity the US are doing in Northern Syria. I have a feeling the bbc article is about something else, more on the topic of how the New Syrian political system is going to look like.... but i could be wrong.


You rpobably remember the 50 SF the US sent to Syria over a moth ago. These are the once who are leading the rebuilding of the old airfield. On Google maps you can see them working on it. It is right on the boarder crossing to Iraq. Its a odd Place to set it up.

a reply to: spy66

We have news about the american "change of plans" also, a 180 degrees turn. They also gave heavy guns to Kurds, against Turks. (A new bill be able to do that)

Maybe the reason is (what the article makes you understand), ISIS is sinking fast in Syria, Turkey is exposed heavily and it takes america down too, Russians took over mideast.. So they try to save whatever they can. You have to click your flag in the link bellow, for english translation.

link

Its like "Save Yourselves!". The false flag army west created to take over mideast and then EU, failed greatly in the first part, they will fail in EU too. I also think Obama said yesterday " I am praying for the Christians" (In syria most possibly), but I want to be honest with you, nobody believes him.

a reply to: Ploutonas



I have been tuching on this topic that Your link refer to a bit ealier when i mentioned that there are differences in who Turkey and the US support compare to Russia/Iraqis when it comes to Kurds (Peshmergas).

Like With moste populations... People tend to pick sides.... this is also the case With the Kurds in northeastern Iraq and Syira. But also With the Kurds living in other locations within Iraq and else where.

Because there is a difference in who the Peshmergas are when it comes to who the Turks and the US are selecting and supporting compare to who Iraqis are selecting and training.

Our media pretrend that the Kurdish Peshmergas Turkey are selecting and training are the same as the Kurdish Peshmergas the Iraqis are selecting and training.

The Kurdish Peshmegas are selected between the two sides based on their political goals...... who and what they support.
THis has also been mentioned by Ashton Carter. And i know that we Norwegians are together With Iraqi authoreties selecting specific individuals to serve as Iraqi Peshmergas With Kurdish/Iraqi interests. Not Turkish/Kurd interests.

The Turkey/US allied supported Peshmergas in northeastern Iraq/Syria are trained as rebels and dressed as rebel fighters (look into it).

The Iraqi government are not selecting, training and dressing their Peshmergas as rebel fighters. Iraq was even threatening to send their Peshmerga fighters to push out the Turkish establishment North of Mosul. This would mean that Iraqi supported Kurdish Peshmergas would have had to fight Turkish/US selected and trained Kurdish Peshmerga fighters.

This might be resolved now for a time being, do to that Turkey have said that they will halt their military build up. But this is not agreed on yet between the Iraqi government and the Turks.


The two sides are not looking to find a resolution that will give them common grounds to work as allies. The two sides are working on a agreement to halt the situation. Do to the fact that the Iraqi government dont have the reasources to cope With the growing problem in Northeastern Iraq.

The Iraqi government have asked Russia and China for more help. They have not asked Turkey or the US.

Turks killing kurds inside Turkey, we got so many articles about it, but I never posted one here, its like a civil in Turkey these days. We also have news, Lybia officially invites Russia in, to take over the jihadists. Khalifa Ghawi interviewd by russian press and he requested it.

originally posted by: spy66
What ever this black Box reveal. It has already being stated by NATO that they show no interest in that information. This does not meam the Russian information is false.

To a Norwegian reporter Jens Stoltenberg said that the Downing of the Russian SU 24 have created internal differences within NATO. There are NATO members who show interests in the Russian black Box. But the information might not be in the best interests of the NATO coallition. The main goal for NATO members is to try and deescalate the situation and try and establish better communication With Russia and Turkey.

At the end Jens said. There are indifferences within NATO but we have to appear United to the world.

Really?

I am from Norway and I have not seen any newspapers reporting that. Please give link to source.

a reply to: pompel9

Really?

Yes....

I said that a reporter had been talking to Jens Stoltenberg. I didnt say it was on the News channels in Norway. Some conversations dont make the News or YouTube.

But here you have something to read, It is from Nettavisen. This aticle is in relation to the Turksih Downing of the SU-24. And is made in a politically correct form. There are quite a lot more information about the problems within NATO... not just about Syria. But about how NATO handels the Russian military build up Close to NATO members countries as well. Polen is one of them... Look it up.

Snips in Norwegian from Nettavisen 25.11.2015: www.nettavisen.no...

En overdreven reaksjon

Håvoll mener det er ulike meninger innad i NATO om Tyrkias reaksjon på Russlands krenkelse av luftrommet.

Militæranalytiker Harald Håvoll sier det blir en viktig oppgave for Stoltenberg å sørge for at konsensus innad i NATO-systemet ikke bryter sammen. NATO består av til sammen 28 medlemsland.

Hva som foregår på bakrommet nå, er ikke godt å si. Men Stoltenberg har en jobb med å sørge for at konsensus ikke bryter sammen. Det er tydelig at en del NATO-land er litt skeptiske til det Tyrkia har gjort.

- Generalsekretæren i NATO er ikke sjef i NATO, men er en sekretær som skal koordinere alle innspillene til medlemslandene. Stoltenbergs rolle er å få disse nasjonene sammen og få til en konsensus. Han fronter organisasjonen utad og har sånn sett en viktig rolle, sier militæranalytiker og seniorrådgiver ved Senter for internasjonal og strategisk analyse (SISA), Harald Håvoll, til Nettavisen.

The text translated by Google:

An excessive reaction

Håvoll think there are different opinions within NATO about Turkey's reaction to Russia's invasion of airspace.

Military Analyst Harald Håvoll says it will be an important task for Stoltenberg to ensure consensus within the NATO system does not break down. NATO consists of a total of 28 member states

What's going on in the back now, is not good to say. But Stoltenberg has a job to ensure that no consensus breaks down. It is clear that some NATO countries are a little skeptical about what Turkey has done.

Secretary General of NATO is not chief of NATO, but is a secretary who will coordinate all inputs to member countries. Stoltenberg's role is to get these nations together and bring about a consensus. He fronts the organization externally and has in that respect an important role, says military analyst and senior adviser at the Center for International and Strategic Analysis (SISA), Harald Håvoll, Nettavisen

There are also Youtube videos where both Jens and Ashton Carter say that Turkish airspace is also NATO airspace.