Top U.S. Air Defense Commander: Turkey’s Shootdown of Russian Jet “Had to Be PRE-PLANNED”

originally posted by: 23432
There is however the other story about radar jamming and reverse engineering of Russian technology.

So what is this? You fail to make your point so you evoke this to help obfuscate your failure?

Just what would radar jamming have to do with this?

Why would One want to reverse engineer anything Russian?...all that can be found is yet another way to do something already well known!

a reply to: Xcathdra

You may not understand, but everybody else does. The Russian craft was on its second pass to the target when it was hit. Why didn't the "threatened" Turks allow the first pass? More importantly, how on earth was Turkey threatened by the Russian plane. Everybody knew what was going on.

Early in the program, Russia did accidentally enter Turkish space and DID apologize, and Turkey accepted the apology.

Turkey shot first, Turkey initiated the hostilities. The only question in my mind is whether or not they were put up to it by their NATO allies?

This whole thing was a sort of Dog & Pony Show put on by Turkey, and maybe its allies too. The gullible will believe it, the more cynical will not. You see and admire the Emperor's New Clothes. I and others are able to see he is butt nekkid, no clothes at all.

a reply to: Salander

It is not a case of being threatened, it is about following through on a threat. Erdogan was standing up to Putin, and now Putin is whining like a baby. Turkey does not need NATO to back it up against Russia:

Turkey has 410,000 service men. Russia has 766,000. Russia's problem is that it has 22,000 kilometers of shared borders to defend, whereas Turkey only has 2,800. Not quite twice the troops to defend 10 times the potential battle front. If you were the Russian Ministry of Defense, would you pull troops off the Polish border to fight in Turkey? Russia has 3,400 aircraft compared to Turkey's 1,000. Setting aside the question of which side has better planes, the Russians have three times the aircraft to defend twenty two times the airspace. Again if you were the MoD, would you pull planes out of the Baltic in the hopes that NATO wasn't setting a trap for you?

Full stats here.

Should a state of war be declared, Turkey would close the Bosporus, cutting Crimea off from the Mediterranean. The Russian Black Sea Fleet is comprised of 45 ships and submarines. Turkey's fleet numbers 115, and they would be operating with full air cover, whereas Russia would not.

If you were Vladimir Putin, would you run the risk of a humiliating military defeat by a regional power that did not even need to call on NATO?

a reply to: DJW001

Brilliant and realistic analysis. I enjoy your posts!

Your stats and info are always worthwhile.

I think Putin won't go to war with Turkey either, and Turkey knows it.

They will reach some kind of detente.

a reply to: Fowlerstoad

Thank you. I have noted elsewhere that Syria and Iraq are now in the hands of the traditional players in The Great Game: Turkey (the Ottoman Empire), France (standing in for the British Empire) Russia, and Iran (the Persian Empire). Any student of history can see that the issue is not what regime is in power in Syria, it is striking a balance of power between the four powers that will allow each to get what it needs from the region. Their goals are not mutually exclusive. Erdogan's ordering the Russian plane to be downed was a necessary show of force to enable Turkey to negotiate from strength.

originally posted by: tanka418

originally posted by: 23432
There is however the other story about radar jamming and reverse engineering of Russian technology.

So what is this? You fail to make your point so you evoke this to help obfuscate your failure?

Just what would radar jamming have to do with this?

Why would One want to reverse engineer anything Russian?...all that can be found is yet another way to do something already well known!

The story is told that the Russians were developing a specific piece of technology that would make the Nato Electronic Detection Systms obsolute and useless .

They had something similar for ground forces and it is being used over Syrian skies at the moment . These planes were carrying aprototype for testing purposes and only way to figure out what Russians did was to recover the piece of technology and reverse engineer it .
That is how USA knew where Russians were going to be , they shared the info with Turks who already was telling everyone that they will shoot ANY plane down.
Well , you know 1 stone and 2 birds .
Nato has the technology and Turks save their innocent brethen from being killed [ as well as other benefits ].

I have been on ATS for a long long long time ; I don't make things up .

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Fowlerstoad

Thank you. I have noted elsewhere that Syria and Iraq are now in the hands of the traditional players in The Great Game: Turkey (the Ottoman Empire), France (standing in for the British Empire) Russia, and Iran (the Persian Empire). Any student of history can see that the issue is not what regime is in power in Syria, it is striking a balance of power between the four powers that will allow each to get what it needs from the region. Their goals are not mutually exclusive. Erdogan's ordering the Russian plane to be downed was a necessary show of force to enable Turkey to negotiate from strength.

The Great Game , the never ending saga of the ages .

Let's remember those 35+ million Turks of Iran who are at boiling point already . Turkmen are fighting against Iranian miltary personnel in Syria .

China is arriving and there are Uyghur Turks of East Turkestan and finally the Turks of Russia who are by and large Christian & Muslim & Jew .

This game is will always have a Turk in it ; in fact without Turk there is no Great Game , there is no history .

Why are people so surprised by this?

Turkey shot down a drone just last month. They said, after that incident, that they WILL shoot down military jets.

www.aljazeera.com...

Of course it was pre-planned. They said they would do it and they weren't lying. Not saying it was right for them to do but people shouldn't be so surprised.

a reply to: DJW001

Well that's strange, what you say.

Just about a month ago, at the beginning of the Russian action in Syria, Russian craft DID infringe on Turkish airspace, DID acknowledge it, and DID apologize. Turkey accepted the apology with kind words.

Then about a month later, after Russia destroyed all the convoys carrying stolen oil one way and weapons the other way, all of a sudden Turkey gets over-sensitive. Hmmm.......

a reply to: Salander

Just about a month ago, at the beginning of the Russian action in Syria, Russian craft DID infringe on Turkish airspace, DID acknowledge it, and DID apologize. Turkey accepted the apology with kind words.

And then Russia started bombing ethnic Turks who were huddled near the border, and Turkey decided to do what Putin did in Ukraine.

a reply to: DJW001

Turkey decided to do what Putin did in Ukraine.

Ah... that story again. Lots of communist tanks rolling over poor Porochocolate.

Except he is fighting his right-wing battalions now, which were killing mainly civilians in their terror operation against federalist demands. You folks really think Russians have no rights whatsoever to help the people defending themselves. Nope, you would even go 'that one step' further and compare this war on civil disobedience with Erdogans support for ISIS. Marvellous!

And, of course, everybody who disagrees must be a Russian Troll.
Just roll over and except all layers of Heglian Dialectics in that masterpiece.

I think all this crap kinda supports the OP via showing us how exactly the propaganda bubble works.

S&F for this thread, Ros. What a fun read with regards to derailing and stuff!

a reply to: PublicOpinion

If the Russian troops weren't in the Crimean streets to protect ethnic Russians like Putin said they were, what we're they doing?

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Salander

Just about a month ago, at the beginning of the Russian action in Syria, Russian craft DID infringe on Turkish airspace, DID acknowledge it, and DID apologize. Turkey accepted the apology with kind words.

And then Russia started bombing ethnic Turks who were huddled near the border, and Turkey decided to do what Putin did in Ukraine.

Perhaps the Turks with Erdogan have more dirty laundry than most countries? War is Hell. I cannot cry for the Turks, and every day it becomes more apparent they are doing business with ISIS.

a reply to: Salander

Perhaps the Turks with Erdogan have more dirty laundry than most countries? War is Hell. I cannot cry for the Turks, and every day it becomes more apparent they are doing business with ISIS.

And what about the Russians, who are supporting a regime that barrel bombs hospitals?

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Salander

Perhaps the Turks with Erdogan have more dirty laundry than most countries? War is Hell. I cannot cry for the Turks, and every day it becomes more apparent they are doing business with ISIS.

And what about the Russians, who are supporting a regime that barrel bombs hospitals?

I'm sorry, did you just go with the "my terrorist is better than your terrorist"?

So Russia's over there with white swan bombers and cruise missiles, yet the claim is Assad chose to barrel bomb a hospital.

You do realize that is so beyond desperate it should debut on the NLBS. Not because it's bull# but because it really is next level # there.

Putin: Wholly # Assad! We're winning the information war, quick, let's # it up. Assad go barrel bomb a hospital.

Assad: huh?

a reply to: Rosinitiate

The problem is that Assad is losing the information war. Assad has been using crude weapons against his civilian population for the last four years. Finally he bombed a hospital that has a voice on the world stage. MSF reported the American attack in Afghanistan, which was picked up by anti-American propagandists. Now they have reported an atrocity in Syria, and now all of a sudden they have no credibility?

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Rosinitiate

The problem is that Assad is losing the information war. Assad has been using crude weapons against his civilian population for the last four years. Finally he bombed a hospital that has a voice on the world stage. MSF reported the American attack in Afghanistan, which was picked up by anti-American propagandists. Now they have reported an atrocity in Syria, and now all of a sudden they have no credibility?

Assad has been using crude weapons against the terrorists NATO and Turkey, SA and Qatar funded. Let's not kid ourselves.

What ever crude techniques Assad deployed it was only because his nation was besieged by western meddlers. And don't give me the civil war crap, that was just another western intelligence Arab Spring bull#.

To say anything else is to say the west wants freedom and fairness to her citizens. Nothing to do with pipelines, world banks and global influence. We just want to help the dissenters of Syrias ruthless dictatorship but to hell with those who dissent to their own governments here at home.

I'm not fooled into thinking Russia will save us all. I do think Russia has what it takes to thwart the international bankers latest attempt at wholesale rape and pillaging in the name of "Freedom Dollars".

a reply to: Rosinitiate

Please provide your evidence / sources regarding your continued effort to link NATO to your claims.

a reply to: Rosinitiate

So barrel bombing a hospital is okay if it's run by Europeans?

a reply to: DJW001

The barrel-bombing story reminds me of the poison gas story which reminds me somehow of the Pat Tillman story, which then reminds me of the Gulf Of Tonkin story, which reminds me of the energizer bunny, if you get my drift.