Question on the Free Will of Angels

a reply to: scorpio84

My first reaction was nice thread .. Respect

Then I went through the attachments
Now I feel completely drained

How do you choose your topics for your OPs
I am curious about your intention .. (I might be completely wrong .. You make yourself sound like you are 'new ' to your studies ).

a reply to: scorpio84

As I understand things, one of the gripes Satan and his followers had was that God gave humankind free will where they had none and were created solely to worship Him. Yet, Satan and - if accounts are to be believed - 1/3 of the angels in heaven somehow managed to choose to rebel. So, my question - did the angels have free will (in which case, what was their complaint?) or did God will for them to rebel (in which case - for what possible reason would He do that)?

The Orthodox Jews did not believe that an angel could sin. Lucifer (Satan) did not sin but was only given the job to tempt people to sin with the hope that they would not sin. That was his job, so to speak.

Jesus taught different than rabbinic Judaism taught. Satan's are not fallen angel's but are the spirits of the offspring between fallen angels and the daughters of Adam. All fallen angels are now in the confinements of Sheol, the Greeks call hell. A Satan is any spirit that against the Creator.

Free will was first introduced in the celestial realm called heaven as the Creator created evil. Evil was created to show opposites and introduce freedom of the mind. This automatically introduced His permissive will along with his perfect will. This spirit was introduced to this human creation as the first celestial transgressors were cast from the celestial realm to this terrestrial realm.

The complaint was that the Satan's who were in the celestial realm became aware of choice to embrace this created evil or remain subjective to the perfect will of their Creator. This is what we call free will. Lucifer is a fictitious name given to the Satan who was the chief among all angels. This Satan is named Lucifer only so that we identify him as the chief of the angelic creation at that time. He is now bound in Sheol with all of the transgressors of the celestial realm. His greatest sin was pride and self grandiose. His intent was to overthrow the Creator and become a god.

The chief Satan (Lucifer) will be released during the great tribulation (Jacobs Trouble) then bound again for a thousand years only to be released shortly before the destruction of this entire universe. He and his cohorts are then consumed in a lake of ethereal fire. (According to some)--

I was reading this and was thinking, what makes angels and humans different? because there is a scripture that says angels do not have sex, spoken by jesus:

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. mathew 22:30

so if an angel were to want to have sex, they would not be able to do it with another angel? so to be an angel means a life of celibacy, unless they leave their state as an angel and mate with a already mortal creature.

in the book of enoch the main reason for the watchers leaving heaven and permanently turning to human form was to mate with human females.

from enoch 1, chapter 6:

1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it.

and this event talked about in the book of jude:

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. vs. 6

so we know that angels do not reproduce, and if they do, they create abominations:

enoch 1 chapter 7:

[Chapter 7]

1 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms 2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they 3 became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed 4 all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against 5 them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and 6 fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

jesus appeared as an angel to abraham, before the destruction of sodom and gomorrah.

To Adam Was Granted As A Gift Dominion Over All Things On Earth...
That Enfuriated Lucifer... Who Did Not Want To Give Obesance To Adam... Simply Because He Was Made Of Clay... As Oppose To Fire...
That Led To The Rebellion... Not A Thing Of Free Will... But Of "Right(s)" Instead.

Henceforth Are Men To Be Tested By Fire And Death... For Such Is The Right Of The Devil Who Devours Those Who Are Consumed With Fear And Doubt (see:Caduceus).
The Angel Of God Is Devoured By "Your Fear And Doubt"...
Do Not Cling To Life And You Shall Find It.
God Despises The Coward.
He Shall Offer Them Up To Your Lust.
Do Not Suffer A Witch To Live.

Are You Man Enough To Accept The Charge.... ???
If Not... Pray!

a reply to: NateTheAnimator

How can angels(Djinns) have free will to a creator that has preordained everything to ever happen? Serious open question to anybody in the thread..

Do you mean predestination or preordination? God does not preordain every event in His creation but he does predestine certain events through foreknowledge. Through foreknowledge the Creator knows the outcome of our actions and can then predestine each outcome within His permissive will. Both ordain and destine are not His act or thought but our act or thought. By each thought and act we are either forgiven or judged. If an act or thought is against the permissive and perfect will of God, we can be forgiven that act or thought if we wish to confess that act or thought but if we choose not to ask then we are judged for that transgression. All people are predestined to be destroyed if not forgiven as well as all people are predestined to everlasting life if forgiven for transgressions against the permissive will of the Creator.

The celestial realm is not in time such as we are marked in time. The celestial realm is always in the present with no time. That is why it is everlasting. Without time there can be no predestination and predestination can not be realized except from the everlasting realm standing apart and observing time.

My Only question is.... why are we thus tried with fire and death if we are God's glory????

a reply to: sociolpath

so this:

"At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. mathew 22:30 "

you read as this:

"because there is a scripture that says angels do not have sex,"

that's a bit of an assumption. just saying they do not marry nor are given in marriage does not equal "they don't have sex".


and for the original OP, and questioning intention of angels, some parts are being overlooked and overcomplicated.

someone else has pointed out that lucifer wished to establish his throne in heaven, because he felt he was an equal. that didn't bode well with God. this doesn't necessarily mean he had to be insane, or reckless, or that he even physically attacked any other kingdom....as it does state that he was punished for the iniquity in his heart. maybe he did absolutely NOTHING except DREAM this event in his mind and heart, and that was enough of a rebellion to be cast back down to earth.

Angels to not "make love" in the same incarnate fleshly way that other beings do....ergo, it's cannot be defined as "sex" which is almost purely for reproductive purposes. Rather, angelic lovemaking encompasses other aspects and manifestations that do not focus on the reproductive aspects exclusively. It is possible to "make love" through other manifestations, is what I'm getting at...conversation, song, art, dance, laughter, etc...empathy...all these could be considered lovemaking. Too often humans just focus on the exclusive manipulations of the genital and physical sense organs exclusively and such lends to confusion for many. Ergo - sex without love and love without sex. Lovemaking in it's highest forms don't even require physical flesh.

(...or so I've been lead to understand.)


Also, as I understand the Fallen Angels....they wanted to be worshiped by Humanity instead of the Creator so they fell to earth to lie and conspire and try to deceive the newly formed aspect of creation with their trickery and misdirection. A lot of others have already stated other truths, such as Lucifer's job being to tempt and punish those who did not honor the Creator proper....but I suppose my perspective is very convoluted and I am not very good as expressing myself so I'll shush now.

a reply to: GENERAL EYES

I'm sure angels are saturated in love as they can be directly in the presence of yahweh, who is love.

In their angelic state I do not believe they have sex. But I wouldn't imagine love is lacking.

Angels repeatedly said to people in the bible NOT to worship them, although there seems to have been some that didn't say so I'm not sure. As well as being true to their message by only giving credit to God for everything.

Angels deliver messages, they work behind the scenes sometimes when it comes to miracles, and they will harvest the earth when it is ready.

What I am curious,is what would be the main differences between a human in heaven, and an angel. No way of knowing haha but I mean to find out.

a reply to: sociolpath

was reading this and was thinking, what makes angels and humans different? because there is a scripture that says angels do not have sex, spoken by jesus: At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. mathew 22:30 so if an angel were to want to have sex, they would not be able to do it with another angel? so to be an angel means a life of celibacy, unless they leave their state as an angel and mate with a already mortal creature. in the book of enoch the main reason for the watchers leaving heaven and permanently turning to human form was to mate with human females.

There are several traditions of this matter. The first and foremost is that the angelic creation was all created with no sexual counterparts whatsoever. Not trying to be at odds but that is the tradition. The scriptures do not say that angels could not cohabitate as they became terrestrial but only that the human would be as the angels in heaven and not given in marriage as they are in the terrestrial realm. Tradition tells us that as any celestial being appears on earth it does so with a substance change from celestial to terrestrial. Just as any human appears in the celestial world it also must have a substance change from terrestrial to celestial.

This applied to the 200 angels who came down to this earth on Mt Herman. They had a substance change from celestial to terrestrial and in doing so were in violation to the rules of the Creator. This entrapped them to this realm and deprived them from ever returning to the celestial realm. They became a terrestrial bodily substance and must then perish as a terrestrial substance. This does not mean that their spirit was destroyed but only that their terrestrial body was destroyed the same as all terrestrial creation. In death they were cast into Sheol till the last day when they shall face their second death of the spirit.

As all justified human spirits ascend into the celestial kingdom of heaven they are given a new body that replaces the terrestrial body which has been destroyed. They do not become an angel but become as angels meaning their substance has been changed to everlasting substance sustained by the fruit and water of life in New Jerusalem. Sex is not a part of the celestial substance. There is another tradition which teaches us that angels have no need to eat and drink the food and water of life such as the human spirit has.

a reply to: Layaly

My intention is debate. To be honest, I was hoping to have more theists take part - but it seems mostly me taking up a theistic position versus atheists. I don't mind this, but as I'm agnostic, I would have liked to pass the torch, so to speak, to a theist. As for being "new" to this kind of thing - does it show that much? No, I'm not new - I've just forgotten a lot. It's been nearly 10 years since I graduated from university and sadly enough, a theology degree is pretty useless for anything other than debating about...theology.

As for how I come up with my topics..a thought comes into my head and I post it. I try to look at things in the context in which they were meant. People read the KJV of the Bible and reject it as outlandish. I reject it as a bad translation. Even when reading the original Hebrew (which I can't) - there'd be other things to consider.

a reply to: sociolpath

What I am curious,is what would be the main differences between a human in heaven, and an angel. No way of knowing haha but I mean to find out.

How about Metatron.. It's said he was a human and God made him an angel ..

According to Jewish apocrypha, Metatron is Enoch the great grandfather of Noah, transformed into an angel. The book of Genesis (5:24) is often cited as evidence of Enoch's bodily ascension into heaven: "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."[6]

a reply to: scorpio84

I asked because I like what you do here

I like the answers I think it's the first time I can say I ve learned something new .. there are beautiful things to be learned from religion yet it can become such a narrow minded highly opinionated conversation

Your style is unique .. I am not sucking up or praising either.. it's just this is the first time the debate seems unbiased so it's enjoyable

a reply to: scorpio84

What was the plan with your uni ? meaning what were you planning to do with your degree

I just looked it looks like you dish out a lot of $$ to get the degree but I can't see what can you do with it

a reply to: Seede

Yeah that makes sense. I find it quite exciting. Because 1, we are in a place those angels left the celestial realm for they wanted to be here so bad.
Alot of times it doesn't seem so great here this place is going to # but then I see another sunrise, or a giant redwood tree... These are not where the love comes from but from the celestial plane. There's must be something about the terrestrial plane... And 2, we get to exist in the celestial realm after this. So it's will be like getting out of school and being free from our mean teachers (the descendants of the fallen watchers).

***
And I didn't know before of the story of metatron but did know about enoch. I always wondered what it was like for him after he left the earth.

a reply to: Layaly

Thanks - what I'm doing is just trying to satisfy my own curiosity. Maybe it's unbiased because I am unbiased. We all know that agnostics are not theists - but we're not atheists either. At best, we could say most atheists are probably agnostic. I do lean towards the notion of a god - if not one described by religion - than at least something beyond what we know or can know in our present physical state.

Feel free to suck up. My ego never gets full. Seriously, though, I didn't think you were.

As for my plan during university - it was to study German and international politics. Long story short, I didn't feel like taking the economics requirement (kind of regret it) so switched to theology b/c a). I hoped to bring peace to the Middle East and wanted a sound understanding of their beliefs and of belief in general and b). I was a full on atheist and wanted to disprove God from the inside-out, so to speak.

I actually didn't dish out a lot of money - I sure do OWE a lot, though. I don't really do anything with my theology degree (well, minor) - it just gives me a better understanding. Even when I forget certain things I've learned, I at least know how to approach a theological topic.

The other thing I enjoyed about theology was that it allowed me to combine an interest in philosophy/metaphysics with my knowledge of foreign languages. Doing a report gave me a good excuse to read books in German, French, Latin, etc.

I have made money with my German degree, though - or rather the knowledge I gained of the language as part of getting a degree in it.

The sad truth is that - except for perhaps doctors and engineers (and maybe a few others) - most people don't actually get to use their degrees in the real world, except to separate themselves from those who don't have a degree at all. I studied what interested me, not what I thought would make me money. At least I had an awesome college experience.

a reply to: scorpio84

After doing some checking into this, I found the following idea (I'll just put it out there that I'm approaching this from the Christian tradition - anyone who wants to add other theologies, please do so) - that the angels had free will and chose to rebel. So, let me get this straight: 1). God creates everything perfect 2). The fallen angels had high intelligence (I am guessing here that God didn't surround Himself with clucks) 3). The fallen angels had intimate knowledge of God (they didn't just infer His existence the way people do) 4). They knew rebellion would be futile. This leads me to conclude that they were insane. Yet that would go against premise 1. If they weren't insane, what would the explanation be then, other than God willed it.

Of course you realize that theology is just that and as long as a theological discussion is kept from demanding proofs then it does become interesting. Through some Hebrew concepts the following is taken from their traditions.

Within the Apostolic Christianity Theology the celestial creation did not have choice when first created. Choice was introduced when the Creator wanted true love from independent source. The Creator exists in love. Love is indescribable and compasses many avenues of thought. There are countless meanings of love. Love for God, love for mother, love for father, love for sister, love for brother etc.. We could go on and on for countless loves and they are all different one from another. The greatest love is that of love for the Creator and it is this love that He craves from His existence.

So in lieu of this desire of the Creator, He then created evil to create understanding. Evil is the opposite of love. To explain love to His creation He must show them what love is not. Even the most unlearned know what their concept of love is. It may be a moon god but to them it is their understanding of love. All of creation has love instilled in them even though their love has many faces and along with this love is their evil. So evil also has as many faces as love.

God then brought Himself into visibility for His creation to assimilate Himself with them. This entity was called The Word
and is not to be confused as to have been created. The Word was begotten and not created. It was an entity of the Creator with life within itself. It was and is the visible Creator. Evil is a spirit which was conceived in the celestial realm first. The Creator opened the minds of the celestial creation by giving them choice to love the perfect will of the Creator known as The Word or not to love The Word. This was the exact pattern that the Creator had offered the terrestrial world through Jesus.

By choice the one angelic creature who is called Satan (Lucifer) became the first to embrace evil. His choice was to usurp the authority of The Word and become the god of creation. His desire was not this world but the celestial heavenly world. By embracing evil, Satan then showed the entire creation exactly what evil was. It was the opposite of love.

By this act of evil towards the Creator the Satan (Lucifer) was cast down to the terrestrial world as a tool to teach this second creation the very same lesson as to what evil is. The lesson was taught to the very first man and woman as it was taught in the celestial world. The man and woman did have choice but not the knowledge of the spirit evil as did the celestial creation. As you now have realized, their minds were also opened in the same manner as all creation underwent. That is through choice. True love therefore comes through knowledge first and then by choice does it not?

Now as far as rebellion is concerned. The celestial Satan did not know or understand the repercussions of his choice. At this time death was not privy to them. This celestial creation was not created with any conception of death such as the terrestrial creation was. It is still not clear as to Satan today whether or not He faces death. Tradition tells us that Satan faces the ethereal lake of eternal torment but actually we do not know what that is. Whether that ethereal fire is a consuming element or simply discomfort we do not truly understand. There are some teaching that the rebellious angels who are in confinement today do not believe that they will ever actually perish into nothingness but will be punished and eventually be set free. There are also some human spirits with this same belief. Nevertheless, the spirit of evil is the counterpart of love.

Lucifer... was the first creation... And his design was most beautiful.
He was fashioned out of fire... But was only a servant of the Lord.
When Adam was fashioned of clay... the Lord desired greatly to give to Adam absolute dominion over the earth and all things in it. Furthering that assumption... all things in heaven were to give obesance to Adam. Lucifer was/is infuriated by this and would not submit to clay... when he asked the Lord why.... the Lord said: "I Saved The Best For Last!"
This made the heavens clap, praise, And cheer.... which made Lucifer the shinning one. Aka flushed/fevered... the end!

a couple more points to throw in since it seems like much is being overlooked and so many assumptions made.

1. there are only 4 angels mentioned by name in the bible.
2. all angels referenced in the bible are always male or appear as male. it is an inference that all angels are created as male - therefore they do not have "marriage" as we do here. there is nothing biblically to support them being androgynous or hermaphroditic, that's all just wild assumptions.
3. the character of lucifer seems to be out of whack in most replies as well. it is stated he had a throne and a kingdom, so he was ruling "somewhere", most likely over the planet Earth. he, in his heart, wanted to establish his kingdom in Heaven...was rejected, and forcefully cast BACK DOWN to earth.
4. angels were created in huge numbers...and therefore the marriage thing is also not needed, as they don't need to reproduce as we do to maintain numbers.