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Question on the Free Will of Angels

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posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 06:13 PM
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Hello, illustrious theologians of ATS - I need help with another theological question...

As I understand things, one of the gripes Satan and his followers had was that God gave humankind free will where they had none and were created solely to worship Him. Yet, Satan and - if accounts are to be believed - 1/3 of the angels in heaven somehow managed to choose to rebel. So, my question - did the angels have free will (in which case, what was their complaint?) or did God will for them to rebel (in which case - for what possible reason would He do that)?

Please reply with well thought-out answers.




posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 06:26 PM
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originally posted by: scorpio84
As I understand things, one of the gripes Satan and his followers had was that God gave humankind free will

For a start, that motive is not a Biblical statement. It comes from somebody speculating.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 06:31 PM
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a reply to: scorpio84

I think you need some schooling in bible exegetics, to make it "PC" Your answer is the right one if it doesnt hurt anyone



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 06:32 PM
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Great question.

My understanding is that the angels were not programmed robots, so they were not predetermined to worship thus could exercise free will. However, they seem to know God personally and can interact with Him in a more direct manner than we can. Imagine if you knew God existed beyond any shadow of doubt. because you can interact with Him, you know he is The Creator and still you refuse His love. Now, that is big time ego trippin'.

The difference is that, today we have some proof of God, but some refuse to give it credibility. So we have a real test of faith, unlike the angels who know and decide to rebel. We rebel because we know not what we do, because the fallen angels instilled doubts so we can reject Him like they did. We can only believe which is why faith is so important, because only then can we truly decide if we love Him or not based on what we heard and what we feel with our minds hearts and soul.


edit on 24-11-2015 by bitsforbytes because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 06:36 PM
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a reply to: scorpio84

God isn't some will-restricting all powerful universal entity. He is an intergalactic commander and commands an army and some of that army disbanded.

Every intelligent self-aware being has the right to free will, it is a universal law.

And they didn't rebel, they decided to go psychopathic and rape everything, pillage humanity and infect bloodlines of animals and humans alike.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 06:46 PM
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a reply to: scorpio84

Depending on the Faith you discuss it varies...

In Christianity, Angels have free will and therefore were able to rebel...

In Islam, Satan (Iblis) is a Djinn, not an Angel, as Angels are God's servants, Djinn were given free will...

& in Judaism, Satan merely means "adversary"... I'm not sure about their Angelic definitions.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 06:48 PM
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I think He knows what He is doing and that His law of love and His word is the truth and that the truth will always come about even if it is destroyed, buried, warped, confused or obfuscated.

Choice is freedom and freedom is responsibility and those responsibilities are all clear in the good books (Torah, Bible and Qu'ran).
edit on 24-11-2015 by bitsforbytes because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 06:56 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: scorpio84
As I understand things, one of the gripes Satan and his followers had was that God gave humankind free will

For a start, that motive is not a Biblical statement. It comes from somebody speculating.


The definition of the trinity is not found in the Bible, yet Christians adhere to it. Also, I'll repeat myself:

Situation 1: The fallen angels had the choice to rebel, hence they had free will. Why were they upset about people having free will?

Siituation 2: The fallen angels had no free will, meaning the choice to rebel was put into their minds by God. Why would He do such a thing?



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 06:56 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: scorpio84
As I understand things, one of the gripes Satan and his followers had was that God gave humankind free will

For a start, that motive is not a Biblical statement. It comes from somebody speculating.


The definition of the trinity is not found in the Bible, yet Christians adhere to it. Also, I'll repeat myself:

Situation 1: The fallen angels had the choice to rebel, hence they had free will. Why were they upset about people having free will?

Siituation 2: The fallen angels had no free will, meaning the choice to rebel was put into their minds by God. Why would He do such a thing?



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 07:00 PM
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originally posted by: rajas
a reply to: scorpio84

I think you need some schooling in bible exegetics, to make it "PC" Your answer is the right one if it doesnt hurt anyone


I didn't give an answer - I posted a question. Please, school me in exegetics.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 07:01 PM
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How can angels(Djinns) have free will to a creator that has preordained everything to ever happen?

Serious open question to anybody in the thread...



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 07:06 PM
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After doing some checking into this, I found the following idea (I'll just put it out there that I'm approaching this from the Christian tradition - anyone who wants to add other theologies, please do so) - that the angels had free will and chose to rebel.

So, let me get this straight:

1). God creates everything perfect
2). The fallen angels had high intelligence (I am guessing here that God didn't surround Himself with clucks)
3). The fallen angels had intimate knowledge of God (they didn't just infer His existence the way people do)
4). They knew rebellion would be futile.

This leads me to conclude that they were insane. Yet that would go against premise 1. If they weren't insane, what would the explanation be then, other than God willed it.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 07:09 PM
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originally posted by: NateTheAnimator
How can angels(Djinns) have free will to a creator that has preordained everything to ever happen?

Serious open question to anybody in the thread...


Your question assumes predestination. Though, I don't really have a good answer since those who do not adhere to predestination do say that everything happens according to God's will - which, is IMHO, the same thing.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 07:10 PM
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a reply to: scorpio84




If they weren't insane, what would the explanation be then, other than God willed it.


Yeah that has always been my contention with Christians on this topic. Yet they never concede that God or Allah may have actually wanted some of his flock to fall.

Well either way God had a huge part to play in their decision to disobey him. He had the power to stop them in their tracks but choose not to?
edit on 24-11-2015 by NateTheAnimator because: ETA



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 07:11 PM
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originally posted by: NateTheAnimator
How can angels(Djinns) have free will to a creator that has preordained everything to ever happen?

Serious open question to anybody in the thread...


Everything being preordained does not negate free will...

There was indeed a possibility you wouldn't have even asked such a question, it was preordained for both outcomes...

You chose to go your own path and ask.

It was preordained for me to read your post and skip, or reply, I chose to reply.



That's the easiest way to explain free will.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 07:11 PM
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How else do you protect love other than with belief?

I want it that my passion and duty to love my wife with trusting and caring ways to sow good fruits between us so that she may believe me that I keep my word and I keep giving her, her ways with care and will. I keep this habit even when my tongue is incapable of being kept calm like roaring lions in a cage. Speaking unclean words using your displease as excuse to lay unmerciful ways on her.

Isn't what God wants; he wants us to use belief in the greater good to back up your good will and keep your words clean.

How else than with faith can you find and keep love in your heart? Please explain.
edit on 24-11-2015 by bitsforbytes because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 07:22 PM
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a reply to: CharlieSpeirs




Everything being preordained does not negate free will...


How is that possible? Jehovah,Allah and Yahweh all have the power to predetermine the fates of their creations and change it accordingly. The only decisions the creations make are out of the necessity of the limited decisions available. (e.g what to eat, what to wear and who talk to)

That isn't free will.


edit on 24-11-2015 by NateTheAnimator because: Grammatical



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 07:24 PM
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originally posted by: NateTheAnimator
How can angels(Djinns) have free will to a creator that has preordained everything to ever happen?

Serious open question to anybody in the thread...


Not every Christian is a reformed Calvinist, some of us think they are a little kooky in the head

Problem is its a long difficult theological argument, both sides have a reasonable response, Calvinists tend to be very fundamental in their view.
Fundamental in believing they are right and every one else is wrong.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 07:32 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

I don't see how someone being a Calvinist or not reflects God's ability to know the fate's of his creation.

If he has the power to create the universe is it too hard to conceptualize(even as a non-Calvinist) that God could predetermine the fate of his angel servants?

How does it affect their ability to choose right from wrong from the limited streamlined scenarios that God has fore knowledge about?
edit on 24-11-2015 by NateTheAnimator because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 07:55 PM
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a reply to: NateTheAnimator

Not to mention, God does pretty much the same thing with Pharoah.




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