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Question on the Free Will of Angels

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posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 08:00 PM
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a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

So you subscribe to the God knows all possible paths and outcomes and we choose which to follow? Wouldn't that make God less omniscient and more like a person who guesses on a test by filling in ALL of the answers. By this line of reasoning, I am God. I know you are going to either reply or not reply to this post - and as a loving God, I will give you the free will to choose.

I know the possible outcomes.
You choose which you do.

The only way that I'm not God according to this logic is if God knows not only the possible choices and outcomes, but also knows the choice and the outcome. This, however would lead us back to evil in the world being part of His will.

So - are we all God or is God evil?




posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 08:22 PM
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There is a difference between knowing what will happen ( seeing the end from the beginning) and pre-ordinance. We make our own choices as did the angels and those actions are known by god already( depending if you even believe in him or not)....They were tricked by Lucifer believing they could overthrow god and the archangels so they could do what they wanted to do instead of what they were doing which who knows what the hell that is....

The fact that they rebelled shows they had free will to begin, god doesn't want anyone to be forced into loving him, he wants it freely which is the entire point of free will....its a very easy to understand concept



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 08:34 PM
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a reply to: scorpio84

That is the paradox that lies in God. He know all and what is to come because the law of truth will prevail. But, He doesn't know exactly what each person will decide because otherwise that would be misleading us into believing we are not able to truly decide. But he knows that the truth will prevail, because that is the nature of truth as he designed it.

Evil is a choice that exists because some men will it in existence. They hold not their tongues and sow discord, cheat one another, justify killing with non sense, give more importance to objects than life. We choose exactly what we want to do and how we treat ourselves and others. Conscientious being that can chose to be truthful to ones self and honest in his actions to uphold his brothers and sisters upright. Those are what God wants us to be.

The question you pose is a false choice of two scenarios. We are not God, we have Him on our side if we chose so. He truly wants us to be good. Why do you look for evil in God? You need the contrast of pain and relief to understand their is a difference and choose which state is preferable for you and those with you.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 08:35 PM
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I think you're diluting this...God doesn't fill in all the blanks as you say. He knows what you will choose but you have an option to choose....that's not what you're saying at all...while you're generalizing he could tell you specifically what you'll say, think, feel, and do every day, every hour and knows when, how, and when you'll die and what choices lead to it....What you said is nowhere near this and Satan being the father of lies answers your other question about who's god and who isn't

" And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

They frickin died and were no gods...youre not god and neither am I

a reply to: scorpio84



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 08:38 PM
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a reply to: NateTheAnimator

Please see my posts above.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 08:54 PM
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a reply to: bitsforbytes

I read your post and your making the assumption that the angels are not programmed like robots which is a false assumption when the angels are servants to the command of God.

They were created to kiss God's ass and do his bidding( I would even argue that's why he created humans, topic for another day though). Many bible passages support this.

Gen 3:1

Luke 2:13

Revelations 5:11-5:13





edit on 24-11-2015 by NateTheAnimator because: ETA



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 09:20 PM
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a reply to: bitsforbytes




That is the paradox that lies in God.


God contradicts himself? I knew that.

But, He doesn't know exactly what each person will decide because otherwise that would be misleading us into believing we are not able to truly decide.

Then he isn't omniscient.

Evil is a choice that exists because some men will it in existence.

Really - people can will something into existence? I'm starting to think that people=God.




Those are what God wants us to be.



So, we can act against God's will? Thus, god is not omnipotent.




The question you pose is a false choice of two scenarios.


Well, every other choice makes God either not omniscient, not omnipotent, or not omnipresent (or not any of those). I was trying to give choices that stay within theological tradition.




He truly wants us to be good.


God is undefinable. Yet you purport to know what God wants?




You need the contrast of pain and relief


First, why is there a contrast of pain and relief? Why does there need to be relief? Any reason God didn't want to make a world without pain. In fact, far as I can tell, the angels didn't suffer - then God made humans and sh*t hit the fan. Maybe Satan and his followers didn't like that God was going to make humanity suffer?

More importantly, don't re-hash Tool songs as part of a theological argument:

"Blend and balance pain and comfort deep within you..." (Tool- Stinkfist)



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 09:22 PM
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a reply to: wyrmboy12

Of course I'm not God and I know you aren't.

We are God.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 09:28 PM
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Well not only that, but the psalm, 83? or another close to that number, in which the head El, told the other Els, that they too were mortal like the adams. It was even better in Mauro Biglino's literal translation. And suggestions given that that they should be looking out for the well being of widows/ophans, NOT propping up corruption because they too would one day answer for it.

One could wonder as was more than evident in the literal translations, if angels were angels or annanuki. But nonetheless, it was very interesting.

When I look up in the sky, pretty sure we're looking up into the multiverse, and the heavens. Pretty sure we're all in the Infinite Mind and All, and that this duality universe is a lower mind viral vault part of heaven too! That everything is.

Remember an NDE, where the person shared that he met God/Christ/Angels, not sure if I remember the exact way he described this, but it wasn't traditional religious nde. In any case, he was taken to different "rooms" and they were painted up in a theme, like stations. And they were nebula's. and he looked through the nebula's our space technology has photo'd and he identified many of them....

Everyone has free will. There are only 2 groups that wouldn't have what we call free will, in my mind. The first hasn't left home yet....in telepathy, in the company of Family, you would never harm anyone. You are not tested.

Those in the duality places however, both corporal and entities have choices to make.

The other way would be if you came through the tests and many times chose to not harm, maybe slipping up and going backward in one lifetime or another, but then you finally cannot harm, you understand fully and you are graduated from dualities completely. Then you wouldn't have the free will to fall or harm.

You nonetheless always have freedom, to grow and learn, and develop, ways to help and become who you want to become.

That is what I believe.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 09:28 PM
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Well not only that, but the psalm, 83? or another close to that number, in which the head El, told the other Els, that they too were mortal like the adams. It was even better in Mauro Biglino's literal translation. And suggestions given that that they should be looking out for the well being of widows/ophans, NOT propping up corruption because they too would one day answer for it.

One could wonder as was more than evident in the literal translations, if angels were angels or annanuki. But nonetheless, it was very interesting.

When I look up in the sky, pretty sure we're looking up into the multiverse, and the heavens. Pretty sure we're all in the Infinite Mind and All, and that this duality universe is a lower mind viral vault part of heaven too! That everything is.

Remember an NDE, where the person shared that he met God/Christ/Angels, not sure if I remember the exact way he described this, but it wasn't traditional religious nde. In any case, he was taken to different "rooms" and they were painted up in a theme, like stations. And they were nebula's. and he looked through the nebula's our space technology has photo'd and he identified many of them....

Everyone has free will. There are only 2 groups that wouldn't have what we call free will, in my mind. The first hasn't left home yet....in telepathy, in the company of Family, you would never harm anyone. You are not tested.

Those in the duality places however, both corporal and entities have choices to make.

The other way would be if you came through the tests and many times chose to not harm, maybe slipping up and going backward in one lifetime or another, but then you finally cannot harm, you understand fully and you are graduated from dualities completely. Then you wouldn't have the free will to fall or harm.

You nonetheless always have freedom, to grow and learn, and develop, ways to help and become who you want to become.

That is what I believe.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 09:32 PM
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a reply to: scorpio84
You're trying to make sense out of ancient mythology, and reconcile it with reality. Not easy to do without a lot of twists and turns. Nevertheless, obviously Lucifer/Satan had a personality and the ability to make a choice, or he could not have become jealous enough of god to say...
Isaiah 14

"I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High."

...and then convince other angels to rebel against their creator with him.

One could argue that god orchestrated the whole thing, as he did with Adam and Eve. Then again, one could also argue that the whole story is allegory, and not meant to be taken literally.

edit on 11/24/2015 by Klassified because: eta

edit on 11/24/2015 by Klassified because: oops



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 09:32 PM
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a reply to: Unity_99

Which two groups don't have free will? Sorry, I didn't catch it from your post.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 09:35 PM
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a reply to: scorpio84

Cutting through all the inter denominational baloney, your question seems to me to sum up, not around the question of angels, but rather the essential question of free will itself. Once we can answer whether or not there even IS free will then we might move on to who might have it and who might not. In the enormity of the cosmos as we have come to see it we have no examples of where it might be out there anywhere out there.
The only place we take it for granted that it is, is here. And now, much of what we have considered to be proof of free will is now evaporating away to near nothing in light of new research into neuro-biology.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 09:41 PM
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originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: scorpio84
You're trying to make sense out of ancient mythology, and reconcile it with reality. Not easy to do without a lot of twists and turns. Nevertheless, obviously Lucifer/Satan had a personality and the ability to make a choice, or he could not have become jealous enough of god to say...
Isaiah 14

"I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High."

...and then convince other angels to rebel against their creator with him.

One could argue that god orchestrated the whole thing, as he did with Adam and Eve. Then again, one could also argue that the whole story is allegory, and not meant to be taken literally.


Intimate knowledge of God, yet thinking he could defeat Him? Insanity or extreme hubris?

As for allegory - I'd probably go along with that argument.

Of course when you apply reality to the Bible, things become difficult for the Bible. I'm trying to stay within the confines of the Bible and theological tradition.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 09:47 PM
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a reply to: TerryMcGuire




Once we can answer whether or not there even IS free will then we might move on to who might have it and who might not.


Well, it must exist, otherwise how could we discuss it? Didn't Descartes say something along the lines of we can only have in our minds representations of that which exists?




In the enormity of the cosmos as we have come to see it we have no examples of where it might be out there anywhere out there.


To be fair, we haven't seen that much of the cosmos.




nd now, much of what we have considered to be proof of free will is now evaporating away to near nothing in light of new research into neuro-biology.


This is a theological discussion. Science has no place here.



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 10:14 PM
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a reply to: scorpio84

The ones not yet entering the duality into the tests. Still home where we all yearn to return! And the ones that have worked through many tests and no longer fall, from within the duality. Though they are free and have free will, in the state of being Home, and also in the state of passing, you are telepathic, loving, and feel connected to Family and Love one another. Thats what is meant by not having Free Will.

But angels in the duality universe, ie Els, were mortal, and had to answer for propping up the wrong things, and not helping widows and orphans, ie psalm 83. So the kind of free will commonly used is about the ability to choose to do good or bad.


edit on 24-11-2015 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 10:28 PM
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a reply to: Unity_99

What is this "duality"? Passing from one to another state of existence gives free will?



posted on Nov, 24 2015 @ 10:57 PM
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originally posted by: scorpio84
Question on the Free Will of Angels

Answer on 'free-will/choice' and 'angels';
'Free-will/choice' is impossible!
It is imagination, ego, vanity!
'Feelings' (of making free-will choices) are thoughts/imaginary!
Not to be believed!
As 'free-will/choice' exists in the vanity of the imagination/ego, so do 'angels'!



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 02:20 AM
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originally posted by: scorpio84
The definition of the trinity is not found in the Bible, yet Christians adhere to it. Also, I'll repeat myself:

Situation 1: The fallen angels had the choice to rebel, hence they had free will. Why were they upset about people having free will?

The trinity is deduced from information in the Bible.
The statement "The fallen angels were upset because humans had free will" is not.
Unless you can quote something which can be discussed?

If the statement is not true, the whole paradox vanishes into thin air as an abstract and artificial creation.



posted on Nov, 25 2015 @ 02:42 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

No worries- the question was wrong - as I found out with a bit of research that according to theological tradition, angels do have free will.

Still, I think the discussion as developed some from the OP.

However, if it pleases you to have something to discuss, read this and this. For a different perspective on the topic of angels and free will, I'd suggest reading here.



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