Christians and War

a reply to: Serdgiam

Oh, okay. Well, yes, in Revelation Jesus certainly comes as king of God's heavenly government and wages war against all of the rulers of the earth, and Satan himself.

A Christian remains neutral in earthly politics because his king is Jesus. So Jesus is on the side of right and justice. That is why the horse that he rides forth on to wage war is white, the horse representing warfare, and white representing something holy and clean.

Also, when Jesus became angry and drove out the robbers in his Father's house, it is because they were making a mockery of the temple, when it was supposed to be a place to worship Jehovah, Jesus' God and Father.

Jehovah has no kingdom on earth for which a Christian would fight for. And God's kingdom in heaven will indeed come and fight against wicked mankind, but no Christian will be doing the fighting, Jesus and his holy angels will.

(Daniel 2:44) “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever.

a reply to: JackReyes

Where in scripture does it say Satan rules the earth?
I heard he could INFLUENCE us but under his total control?
I would only assume having been baptized I should be immune to such,in Jesus name.
MY LIFE has been a most dfficult path ,yes ,but I DO know joy and successes,I am NOT totally oppressed.

I also recall being schooled about avoiding judgement of others as you are doing.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: JackReyes

Where in scripture does it say Satan rules the earth?
I heard he could INFLUENCE us but under his total control?
I would only assume having been baptized I should be immune to such,in Jesus name.
MY LIFE has been a most dfficult path ,yes ,but I DO know joy and successes,I am NOT totally oppressed.

I also recall being schooled about avoiding judgement of others as you are doing.

Scripture is quite frank about Satan being the ruler of the world.

For example Jesus said:

(John 14:30) . . .I will not speak with you much more, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has no hold on me.

When he said "the ruler of the world is coming, and he has no hold on me" he was referring to Satan the Devil.

Jesus did not deny Satan had the authority to offer all of the kingdoms of the earth to him, if he worshipped Satan. In fact, that offer was a temptation to Jesus:

(Matthew 4:1, 8, 9) . . .Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil...Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.  And he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”

Notice, Jesus did not tell Satan that the Devil was not the ruler of the world, and he did not deny Satan had the authority to put Jesus in charge if he saw fit.

Here we are shown, that not only is Satan the ruler of the world, he is also the god of this system of things:

(2 Corinthians 4:4) among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

A couple of other scriptures where Jesus refers to Satan as the ruler of the world:

(John 12:31) Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
(John 16:11) then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

This world and all that is in it is Satan's. And anyone involving themselves in the world's politics and wars are actually taking the side of Satan against Jehovah and his Christ, Jesus.

Now, this world, along with its ruler will soon pass away, along with all of its lusts and desires, but those who put their trust in Jesus, and his kingdom government in heaven will remain forever:

(1 John 2:17) . . .Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever.

a reply to: JackReyes

But WHERE is the delineation?
WE DO believe in Christ, WE do try and fail as Christians.
WHAT is the line of demarkation?

When those who eschew laws come and take what they want or exercise their wishes to harm or tresspass I DO believe we are authorized to stop them by the same measure they would confront us.I would wonder about politicains before any concern of gun owners and combat troops come into play.
I however also believe that those too naive to grasp the world and it's evils as we face them and seek only safety while condeming those who stand for us have some kind of mental deficiency or they have lived in some kind of cult or cave most of their lives and have never read a book beyond one that their brand of cult allows.
I read a person on this forum who stated he would rather DIE than defend hisself from a violent attacker.
SUCH ostridges way live as they please but THESE are not above me. Nor I them ,UNLESS THEY CLAIM MILITARY knowledge they don't have, then I can assist in the correction. Usually What is real is FAR worse than they can imagine anyway,UP front and in person.
The job above me is taken,we know each other well.

originally posted by: JackReyes

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: JackReyes

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: JackReyes
John 15:13

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

Good quote.

Of course Jesus himself fulfilled it by dying for his friends. He did not fight, did not pick up arms, he did not stab or shoot anyone.

Jesus was not looking to defend Himself, either. He laid Himself out as the sacrificial lamb.

And also he made himself a model to follow closely. You see a Christian is a follower of Christ. Someone that would do what Jesus would do.

Since no human can meet the whole 'live without sin' behavior, let alone have the power to resurrect themselves, I feel safe to say that the Ultimate Sacrifice facet of Jesus' model behavior is a freebie.

You can still refuse to take sides in war, or pick up arms to fight, as Jesus did. He himself said:

(Matthew 5:48) . . .You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matthew 5

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

As I said before there are some Christians who are pacifist and take this to heart.

There are others who recall that God is no stranger to warfare. God represents justice as much as He represents love. It is possible to spiritually forgive your enemy while physically fighting him.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

No one is forced to be a Christian. But if you are to take upon yourself the responsibility of being one, then you are willing to follow Jesus' pattern, that he set, for us to follow closely:

(1 Peter 2:21-23) . . .In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely. He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. When he was being insulted, he did not insult in return. When he was suffering, he did not threaten, but he entrusted himself to the One who judges righteously.

Jesus said that, just as he was no part of the world, his followers would be no part of the world:

(John 15:19)If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. . .

And he set the pattern for his followers. He also said that we should love our enemies, and pray for those that persecute us. That is what a real Christian does. It is not a mental illness, it is the right thing to do.

Let me use a little simple reasoning with you, if I am able to. There are many people who claim to be Christian. Their are Protestants in the United States, and Protestants in Germany who claim to be Christian, and they picked up arms and slaughtered each other because of political ideologies. Both praying to the same God, and killing and maiming each other. Is that what Jesus taught?

Jesus himself said:

(Matthew 12:25)“Every kingdom divided against itself comes to ruin, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.

According to Jesus himself, these factions and sects of Christendom that war against and fight each other will not be able to stand. But does he approve of them?

Jesus said that the true identifying mark of his disciples would be the love they display among each other:

(John 13:35) By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”

That love, which a real Christian has, would prevent him from picking up arms and killing his spiritual brother in another part of the world, because of political ideologies. It would be unthinkable on his part!

Do not think that God is not real. When you state that you feel entitled to pick up arms to fight, to defend yourself, you are basically stating you do not trust in God and his kingdom to fix things, so you have to take it into your own hands.

That is basically showing a lack of faith. When Jesus was about to be put to death, he did not resort to defending himself. In fact he stated that he had at his command 13 legions of angels, if he so chose, to call upon to protect himself.

Jesus is still in command of Jehovah's legions of angels. He can protect whomever he chooses to, and destroy whomsoever he wills.

When he died, he told his apostles that they would, a lot of them, die violent deaths at the hands of their enemies. And many Christians in the first century were put to death, burned at the torture stake, hung, and not a few sent to the gladiatorial arenas where they were butchered and torn apart by lions for the sport of the pagan Romans.

None of those Christians fought back. Rather, they accepted the fact that as true Christians, they must follow the master's pattern set out for us, and died as true Christian martyrs. They thought it inconceivable to pick up arms and fight.

Remember what Jesus said:

(Matthew 16:25-27) . . .For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. Really, what good will it do a man if he gains the whole world but loses his life? Or what will a man give in exchange for his life? For the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will repay each one according to his behavior.

Prophecy shows that in the final part of the days God would gather out of all the nations, and peoples, and tribes, and tongues, a people for his name. And they would learn war no more. They are peace-lovers, and have done what this wicked world has been incapable of. They have gotten rid of war among each other, and stand as an example for the entire world that true world-wide unity, brotherhood, and love is indeed possible:

(Isaiah 2:2-4) In the final part of the days, The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, And it will be raised up above the hills, And to it all the nations will stream.  And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths"...They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore.

a reply to: JackReyes

In WHAT environment would THAT be safely applied?
Perhaps HERE in you extemely well defended country I suppose we have all kinds who can embrace the life of a monk.
BUT YOU still REQUIRE my presence as a soldier don't you so YOU can be safe enough and thus don't have to.
So I am to be denied my place in heaven because I wanted to volunteer that which is Ceasar's?
As a defender of my given collective or nation state I am NOT a viable Christian?
HOW exactly would mtrydom of you and yours fit into this idea if I DIDN'T exist?
I am trying to use logic of reality here as spirituallity is admirable but unless, as I said, that is your life it will not stand as a functioning society.
And if that bar is too high I wouldn't fit in anyway.
I KNOW I will of course but DO continue.
What's that line "NO greater love..." supposed to mean to you?

a reply to: Teikiatsu

No true Christian is a pacifist. The Bible itself shows us that the final battle of Armageddon is quickly approaching. It will be a war, although instigated by Satan as he attacks defenseless people, who have no arms to defend themselves. It will nevertheless be brought to its conclusion by Jehovah himself as his son and reigning king Jesus will ride forth in righteous warfare.

Notice whom Jesus fights at Armageddon:

(Revelation 16:13, 14) 13 And I saw three unclean inspired expressions that looked like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and they perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.

Yes, Satan and his demons are gathering and militarizing the nations, ALL OF THEM, to wage war against Jesus.

A pacifist does not believe in war. Christians do believe in just warfare. Just, they are not commanded to fight. Jesus said this:

(Matthew 26:52) . . .“Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.

The real war that is being waged is a spiritual one. On the one side, Jehovah, and his son Jesus, and true Christians on earth. On the other side, Satan and his demons, and this entire world in his hands.

A Christian does not wage carnal warfare. It is a spiritual battle, that is the real war. The physical conflicts on earth, are distractions by Satan, as his minions manipulate the political rulers, and religious leaders to get people to fight each other. A Christian knows the real battle is against invisible unseen wicked spirit forces in heavenly places:

(Ephesians 6:12) 12 because we have a struggle, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.

It is unimaginable for a Christian to pick up arms and take sides in Satan's world. They already have a king, he is Jesus. Why would they get involved with the dirty, corrupt, and opposing governments in this world in Satan's control?

(Revelation 6:10, 11) . . .They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Jesus showed what it meant to give your life for your friends. He died for them, and us. He did not pick up a sword to do it though. He allowed himself to be unjustly executed. That is what it means.

It means that if you were told, by your country to pick up arms to kill your brother in another country, you would be willing to give your life, rather than pick up arms to kill him. That is how far you should go.

And while I am not in the country you imagine I am, there are plenty of real Christians around the world, who are united, and have done just that. Even in dictatorial and tyrannical regimens. They have refused to pick up arms to fight their brothers in other lands, at forfeit to their freedom, and many have even sacrificed their lives, rather than disobey God.

True, you must give to Caesar his due. But killing is unconscionable for a Christian. Thus Caesar's law does not trump God's, and if Caesar commands you to go against God, you decide for yourself what you must do:

(Acts 5:29) . . .In answer Peter and the other apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.

Talking about making it to heaven. No one on earth who involves themselves in the political systems of things will make it there. Those who will reign with Jesus as kings and priests over the earth are considered "virgins", not literally. In the fact that they refuse to taint themselves with Satan's system of things, and have set themselves apart of this world, and have become vessels of God, his ambassadors to the nations.

Now, an ambassador does not fight for a foreign nation, rather they are sent as representatives of their king. The king is Jesus. Now since Jesus' kingdom is real, and his servants are ambassadors and envoys in this wicked world, why would they betray Jesus and fight for Satan's corrupt political system of things?

(2 Corinthians 5:20) . . .Therefore, we are ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us. As substitutes for Christ, we beg: “Become reconciled to God.”

a reply to: JackReyes

If you want your church to exist you MUST have warriors to protect said church.
AS I stated sprituality is a respectable goal to attain but it has a military with it or it wouldn't exist ,dispite your rendition of faith.
IT IS NOT up to you wether or not I achive paradise anyway.
God has seen fit to reward me a poor life but I have my satisfactions,I CERTAINLY wouldn't want to exist with a solely spiritual person when I confront an enemy.
AND yes THERE are MANY enemies who would LOVE to either take your things or seek your harm posibly your demise.
TO IGNORE THAT FACT on this dirt ball is a dysfunctional thought process found only in cloistered places ,NOT in the everyday joe who actually fights on YOUR behalf.
THE ONES who DIRECT said service members are SOLELY responsable for their acts as commanders. NOT the troops.
UNLESS the soldier violates his orders or is impaired of course.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Jesus Christ is the warrior. He is a powerful ruler in heaven, with unimaginable power. He protects his servants.

And while he has allowed many of them today to be imprisoned, and even killed for being his followers, he will reward them, by raising them back to life.

Just as in the first century no Christian would participate in the pagan holidays, and the wars of the nations, and not a few were put to death because of it, so today. It is no different. And while Satan and this world does wage war against Jesus and his followers they cannot do anything they are not allowed to do.

No human is needed to protect a Christian. To imagine that God cannot protect his own people belies a lack of faith.

And that is also where a true Christian, and a false one, in name only, is made evident:

(2 Timothy 2:11-13) . . .This saying is trustworthy: Certainly if we died together, we will also live together; if we go on enduring, we will also rule together as kings; if we deny, he will also deny us; if we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.

I respect you and your beliefs, and see that it is very hard for you to conceive of the notion of Christians actually applying what Jesus and the Bible says for us. It takes time, sometimes, once you have been shown, to grasp the matter.

I hope you meditate over the scriptures and reasoning shared here with you.

And anyone else, those who perhaps struggle with the hypocrisy of the Churches involving themselves in warfare and politics. Jesus never did, and clearly scripture shows us that those who do so ARE NOT Christian, and are disapproved of by God.

Jesus himself said that many people who professed to be Christians, when he arrives, will not enter into the kingdom, but he will tell them he never knew those workers of lawlessnes:

(Matthew 7:21-23) . . .“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

a reply to: JackReyes

Yet all we need do is pray for absolution at the end and we are saved.
UNLESS of course God demands we match wits with TIMELESS hugely powerful entities because they have decieved us to live our lives this way.
In which case YOU are also lost by vitrtue of failing to stop them by a more direct means as your faith is insufficient to heal wounds ,rebuke demons and alter reality,like Solomon and his occult learnings achieved.
I would even try myself.
I just try to survive what happens and help as I can.
If violence confronts me I will oppose it rather than let the evils rule me and mine.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: JackReyes

Yet all we need do is pray for absolution at the end and we are saved.

No, but you need to ENDURE until the end:

(Matthew 24:13) 13 But the one who has endured to the end will be saved.

(Hebrews 10:36) For you need endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the fulfillment of the promise.

(2 Peter 3:14) Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace.

(1 Corinthians 9:27) 27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.

a reply to: JackReyes

No one gets to God unless they actually HAVE Jesus in their hearts.
You cannot EARN it buy it or use any other way.
Salvation is a GIFT to mankind FROM JESUS if you honestly have him inside then you are in.
NO qualifications or hoop jumping will suffice, no edicts of faith outside of being born again will work at all.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

I see you added more to your post.

And I respect your right to your viewpoint. I really don't see you as being evil, just thinking that you will do what you think is right. And I respect that as well.

If I had to defend my family from harm, I would do all that I could, in my power to do so. I am not stating that I wouldn't. In fact I have done so before, not physically, but I have made hard decisions for the good of my family, I know where you are coming from.

But, if I would be a Christian, I would not cross the line by tainting myself in the politics of Satan's world, and involve myself in his wars.

Faith can move mountains. And through faith demons are rebuked. I have seen it personally. Not that my faith is anything. But God is something. Demons know he exist and shudder at he mention of his name. And his name is a strong tower and the righteous are given protection in it:

(Proverbs 18:10) The name of Jehovah is a strong tower. Into it the righteous one runs and receives protection.

God has equipped his servants with all the knowledge they need to combat Satan and his demons. Are weapons and armor are not physical, as the warfare is not carnal. The weapons and armor are spiritual, and with them we can conquer, just as Jesus did:

(Ephesians 6:14-17) . . .Stand firm, therefore, with the belt of truth fastened around your waist, wearing the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having your feet shod in readiness to declare the good news of peace. 16 Besides all of this, take up the large shield of faith, with which you will be able to extinguish all the wicked one’s burning arrows. 17 Also, accept the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, that is, God’s word. . .

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: JackReyes

No one gets to God unless they actually HAVE Jesus in their hearts.
You cannot EARN it buy it or use any other way.
Salvation is a GIFT to mankind FROM JESUS if you honestly have him inside then you are in.
NO qualifications or hoop jumping will suffice, no edicts of faith outside of being born again will work at all.

Without a doubt. Salvation is a free gift, given to those who exercise faith in Jesus Christ:

(Ephesians 2:8, 9) By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift. No, it is not a result of works, so that no one should have grounds for boasting.

There is no amount of work anyone can do to receive the free gift. But you must exercise faith. That is not a dead faith. For faith without works is dead:

(James 2:17) 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.

So if you have faith, then show it by your works. Do you really believe Jesus is lord and king? Then allow him to provide for you and protect you. Your faith will be rewarded. But if you just say you have faith, but have cannot back it up with works, of what benefit is it? Is it not a dead faith?

(James 2:14-17) 14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If a brother or a sister is lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.

a reply to: JackReyes

And going to defend is a selfish act?
John 5:13 covered that one rather clearly.
Our vain argument is NOT in keeping with faith so WHY have you attacked ?

a reply to: cavtrooper7

If I thought we were arguing I would have stopped replying to your questions and comments by now. I see this as an interchange between us. You giving me your understanding, and me giving you my understanding of scripture.

I never once argued with you. I did try to persuade you to see why what was stated was, by using scripture. There was no attack meant, and if you implied there was, I apologize for that. It came across wrong somewhere along the line. Again, I respect you and your beliefs deeply. And am happy to answer questions about my faith. that is all that I hope I am doing.

originally posted by: JackReyes
a reply to: cavtrooper7

If I thought we were arguing I would have stopped replying to your questions and comments by now. I see this as an interchange between us. You giving me your understanding, and me giving you my understanding of scripture.

I never once argued with you. I did try to persuade you to see why what was stated was, by using scripture. There was no attack meant, and if you implied there was, I apologize for that. It came across wrong somewhere along the line. Again, I respect you and your beliefs deeply. And am happy to answer questions about my faith. that is all that I hope I am doing.

Been meaning to ask this. are you mormon or jehovah witness OP? Ive posted stuff previous in this thread that goes against the no christians go to war. Also about the sword as well. The meaning of those who live by the sword is not literally about a weapon in your hand but about using your power self servingly and not out of love or protecting someone but vengeance.Basically you get back what you give.

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: JackReyes

Well, lets go back to the original post I made speaking about the bankers. It seems that Jesus took the side that what they were doing was wrong. However, in your posts, it is suggested no side was taken and even that he lost control.

Another would be the conflict prophesied in the book of revelations. It seems that not only is a side taken, but a war is waged on the premise of one side being righteous.

In my perspective, sides are taken in nearly every arena of human interaction, with politics being only one small facet among many problematic areas.

OP fails to realize that we are not to be part of the world(sinful actions) BUT we are to treat others with love and respect and protect those who need protection. Sometimes to protect you have to kill. each thing has a time and a season. Killing in cold blood is wrong. killing to protect is ok,but a last resort. And if it was so wrong to go to war why were a few peoples smoten by the israelites/hebrews?