Christians and War

a reply to: BubbaJoe

Ok so you have no point and you just wanna derail the thread.

OP. read this carefully.

In 1527, Martin Luther responded to a concern about the consciences of soldiers. Then, as now, military personnel struggled with how a just and loving God would judge a life spent in the bloody business of warfare. This was not an abstract theological point, but a personal struggle of deep existential angst. Luther instructed them that their occupation serves society no less than any other. "[I]n itself it is right and godly, but we must see to it that the persons who are in this profession and who do the work are the right kind of persons, that is, godly and upright."

Those who carry the sword, if they do so with justice and integrity, are doing the will of God. "For the very fact that the sword has been instituted by God to punish the evil, protect the good, and preserve peace is powerful and sufficient proof that war and killing," Luther argued, "have been instituted by God." Luther taught that their work, carried out as service to God and neighbor, is indeed a good and noble act. There was no need for their consciences to be weighed down.

Consider the implications if Jesus actually taught non-violence. Nations still require militaries and soldiers to serve in them. The theological danger of the violence-eschewing Jesus is not that soldiers are condemned to hell, but that they are regarded as living a morally inferior life. While we in safer lines of work can carry out our callings under the gracious smile of the Creator, those who live the life of violence are regarded as lesser-Christians. They may be saved in the end, by virtue of God's exceptional mercy, but despite their vocation. Such moral elitism has no place in the Church.

a reply to: yuppa

Yuppa,

Very good post. Agreed.

For example, both of my grandparents, who are now dead, fought in WWII. Both of them thought they were fighting a just and noble cause.

And nowhere does the Bible forbid nations who are alienated from him from defending themselves from evil (in this case Hitler.)

The fact of the matter is this: there are very few real Christians on the face of the earth. So their avoidance in wars, wherever they may be, does not prevent worldly governments from governing themselves as they see fit.

While God allows man to rule himself, those who serve God do not attach themselves to human governments. The "good" governments on earth, allow God's people to worship in peace. But even if there were none, they would still worship God. Just as the three young Hebrews told the king of Babylon who tried to make them worship his image:

(Daniel 3:16-18) 16 Shaʹdrach, Meʹshach, and A·bedʹne·go answered the king: “O Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If it must be, our God whom we serve is able to rescue us from the burning fiery furnace, O king, and to rescue us from your hand. 18 But even if he does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold that you have set up.”

Luke 22:36

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Jesus was not a pacifist. He understood there was a need to defend oneself.

Thou shall not murder

The commandments in a brutal era did not prevent the Israelites from killing in defense or for a just cause. Christ did not negate this commandment.

John 15:13

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

Clearly, placing oneself in danger to defend others is not just allowed but applauded.


There are some Christian denominations that are pure pacifists. They are even allowed exemptions from military service.

There are other denominations that believe there can be justifiable, rational warfare that exists to defend others.

If there are pro-active denominations that believe in belligerent behavior, turning by the sword, 'let God sort them out', etc... in my opinion they have lost sight of what Christ taught.

John 15:13

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

Good quote.

Of course Jesus himself fulfilled it by dying for his friends. He did not fight, did not pick up arms, he did not stab or shoot anyone.

originally posted by: JackReyes
John 15:13

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

Good quote.

Of course Jesus himself fulfilled it by dying for his friends. He did not fight, did not pick up arms, he did not stab or shoot anyone.

Jesus was not looking to defend Himself, either. He laid Himself out as the sacrificial lamb.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: JackReyes
John 15:13

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

Good quote.

Of course Jesus himself fulfilled it by dying for his friends. He did not fight, did not pick up arms, he did not stab or shoot anyone.

Jesus was not looking to defend Himself, either. He laid Himself out as the sacrificial lamb.

And also he made himself a model to follow closely. You see a Christian is a follower of Christ. Someone that would do what Jesus would do.

originally posted by: JackReyes

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: JackReyes
John 15:13

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

Good quote.

Of course Jesus himself fulfilled it by dying for his friends. He did not fight, did not pick up arms, he did not stab or shoot anyone.

Jesus was not looking to defend Himself, either. He laid Himself out as the sacrificial lamb.

And also he made himself a model to follow closely. You see a Christian is a follower of Christ. Someone that would do what Jesus would do.

Since no human can meet the whole 'live without sin' behavior, let alone have the power to resurrect themselves, I feel safe to say that the Ultimate Sacrifice facet of Jesus' model behavior is a freebie.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: JackReyes

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: JackReyes
John 15:13

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

Good quote.

Of course Jesus himself fulfilled it by dying for his friends. He did not fight, did not pick up arms, he did not stab or shoot anyone.

Jesus was not looking to defend Himself, either. He laid Himself out as the sacrificial lamb.

And also he made himself a model to follow closely. You see a Christian is a follower of Christ. Someone that would do what Jesus would do.

Since no human can meet the whole 'live without sin' behavior, let alone have the power to resurrect themselves, I feel safe to say that the Ultimate Sacrifice facet of Jesus' model behavior is a freebie.

You can still refuse to take sides in war, or pick up arms to fight, as Jesus did. He himself said:

(Matthew 5:48) . . .You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

originally posted by: JackReyes

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: JackReyes

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: JackReyes
John 15:13

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

Good quote.

Of course Jesus himself fulfilled it by dying for his friends. He did not fight, did not pick up arms, he did not stab or shoot anyone.

Jesus was not looking to defend Himself, either. He laid Himself out as the sacrificial lamb.

And also he made himself a model to follow closely. You see a Christian is a follower of Christ. Someone that would do what Jesus would do.

Since no human can meet the whole 'live without sin' behavior, let alone have the power to resurrect themselves, I feel safe to say that the Ultimate Sacrifice facet of Jesus' model behavior is a freebie.

You can still refuse to take sides in war, or pick up arms to fight, as Jesus did. He himself said:

(Matthew 5:48) . . .You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Fighting to defend others is a noble sacrifice and actually lauded. reemember there is no greater love than is displayed when a man lays down hi s life to defend another. As earlier i posted though Chriastians do go to war,but they do so with love for their enemies. As to turning th e other cheek jesus didnt mean to just sit there and be killed. Poeple always mistake those words as to be totally passive.

Oh and remember we are to abid e by the laws laid down fo r us by our leaders correct? So killing in certain circumstances is ok to do.

77% of American troops are Christian and they have been fighting in the Middle East for nearly 15 years now, not to mention all the wars before that as well.

Apparently they do fight wars. Or is your entire argument based on the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy?

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

In a country that holds no official religion or do you actually think that the wars fought in the middle east are holy wars?

a reply to: JDmOKI

I never said anything about the wars being holy wars, only that Christians fight in them. But I'm sure the predominately Christian America being in the predominately Muslim Middle East could be seen as a "holy war" in a way. This is the slant the MSM uses to coerce people into accepting the wars, they play on our emotional connection to religion and say the bad guys are the Muslims. This is why I believe religion is purely a political tool, it is used to coerce people into going to war.

originally posted by: JackReyes
a reply to: Helious

Interpretation belongs to God. If you think you can rely upon yourself then left his own word rebuke you:

(Proverbs 3:5-7) 5 Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, And do not rely on your own understanding.  6 In all your ways take notice of him, And he will make your paths straight.  7 Do not become wise in your own eyes. Fear Jehovah and turn away from bad.

Do not become wise in your own eyes make me think of questioning the subjective reasoning to try to be objective.

Fearing Jehova(the divine not the religion dogma), is is like fearing an objective mother who will not allow you to hurt her other children and will put you in timeout when you miss behave but want symbiosis between all the children. If you do not do stupid things then there is nothing to fear and unnecessary fear will lead to less feeling of symbiosis. There is nothing to fear but your own creation of a bad fate because of lack of awareness.

originally posted by: occrest
You seem to forget about when he ran the moneychangers (bankers) out of the temple with a whip, overturning all their tables. I agree with you on all your other points.

That event was taken out of context and never happened the way it has been written.

originally posted by: yuppa
OP. read this carefully.

In 1527, Martin Luther responded to a concern about the consciences of soldiers. Then, as now, military personnel struggled with how a just and loving God would judge a life spent in the bloody business of warfare. This was not an abstract theological point, but a personal struggle of deep existential angst. Luther instructed them that their occupation serves society no less than any other. "[I]n itself it is right and godly, but we must see to it that the persons who are in this profession and who do the work are the right kind of persons, that is, godly and upright."

Those who carry the sword, if they do so with justice and integrity, are doing the will of God. "For the very fact that the sword has been instituted by God to punish the evil, protect the good, and preserve peace is powerful and sufficient proof that war and killing," Luther argued, "have been instituted by God." Luther taught that their work, carried out as service to God and neighbor, is indeed a good and noble act. There was no need for their consciences to be weighed down.

Consider the implications if Jesus actually taught non-violence. Nations still require militaries and soldiers to serve in them. The theological danger of the violence-eschewing Jesus is not that soldiers are condemned to hell, but that they are regarded as living a morally inferior life. While we in safer lines of work can carry out our callings under the gracious smile of the Creator, those who live the life of violence are regarded as lesser-Christians. They may be saved in the end, by virtue of God's exceptional mercy, but despite their vocation. Such moral elitism has no place in the Church.

that is a good argument, but lets take a look at the relevance of the texts you quoted....

Remember one key point when dealing with the gospels... Luke was a follow of Paul, not Jesus...

thus his at the very least two of the four can be taken as precedence over luke...

Luke even writes that he "interviewed" people to get the information, so he was not a first hand witness if we're going to take that idea into account

in Matthew

And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Admittedly, Jesus wasn't a pacifist... he kicked some ass in the temple...

Though he didn't ever advocate killing for any reason... and even prevented it in many cases

One does not need to kill to "sacrifice" their life for another

originally posted by: Tindalos2013

originally posted by: occrest
You seem to forget about when he ran the moneychangers (bankers) out of the temple with a whip, overturning all their tables. I agree with you on all your other points.

That event was taken out of context and never happened the way it has been written.

Oh is that so, what was it like being there and seeing it first hand?

originally posted by: JackReyes
You see, they are both so easily manipulated by Satan.

And it was all so rational and lucid right up until this big imaginary fly in the ointment! *__-
('Satan' is your 'thoughts/imagination' and 'feelings' (feelings are thoughts)!

It is easy to tell the real Xtian;

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS recognized by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!
(Now you can tell the real thing from the 'cheap thrills' offered by the ego! *__- )

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
77% of American troops are Christian and they have been fighting in the Middle East for nearly 15 years now, not to mention all the wars before that as well.

Apparently they do fight wars. Or is your entire argument based on the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy?

If there is a 'true' Scotsman, there is a 'false' Scotsman!
No 'true' apple is square and made of plastic!
That is not a fallacy, it is definitional!
Jesus said that all true Xtians are Loving, unconditionally!
Thus, no true Xtian is judgmental and hateful and violent and persecutes others (at the say-so of a government)!
If Jesus could not define a 'true' Xtian, then who can? He's the guru!
Thus, claiming 'fallacy' is erroneous, in this instance.
(What are you trying to validate/defend?)

a reply to: namelesss

We are not to judge except when it comes to sin.

“If your brother or sister sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.

19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

Matthew 18: 15-20

When you love someone, you correct them when you see them acting in error, just like a parent tells their child when he or she is not behaving appropriately.

Love is not allowing a person to go one behaving in a destructive manner.