It's time to wake up!

originally posted by: Andy1144
So then that is your claim/argument. Don't say it isn't.

That is a fact. Proof in both layman's and scientific terms.

I want to know what you think DE means to make sure we're on the same page.

What you say it is.

DE is necessary for the illusion of self to be seen. Plus, even if you did have the experience, isn't it possible it only lasted a short second before identification came wooshing back? It happens often to people as far as I've read and they don't have the chance to experience the true pangs of the realization with that small glimpse alone.

Anything is possible but it makes no difference.

I accept that I can be wrong. Man, I wish I could be like you.

Also in addition, there is something important which I should have mentioned earlier. Having a DE experience and having the illusion of self fall away is NO big deal in a sense.
For example, you can take '___' and lose the sense of self and experience DE. And then after the trip, it's like nothing ever happened. It was cool but meh, nothing too life changing.
Yes, this is completely true. If the sense of self falls away this way then it is no big deal.
The only way you can make this realization stick is through seeing it in a different way mostly triggered by self-inquiry. Otherwise, you wont have any major implications at all. I remember stating this briefly but should've given it more attention.

a reply to: Andy1144

Does not apply to my experience.

a reply to: daskakik

"That is a fact" is a claim. Trying to disprove someone using facts is making claims based on evidence. So I doubt you were asking me for more proof if you were this convinced.

What you say it is.

No, tell me.

Anything is possible but it makes no difference.

I accept that I can be wrong. Man, I wish I could be like you.

What do you mean it doesn't make a difference. It sounds nihilistic.
You really don't strike me as someone who accepts they could be wrong sensing how convinced you sound. Why would you like to be a fool like me?

You also said anything is possible, yet you were speaking with conviction when saying that you had experienced the illusion of self. I don't know what time zone it is there but maybe it's getting late?

a reply to: daskakik

Does not apply to my experience.

Said the christian when confronted evidence.

originally posted by: Andy1144
"That is a fact" is a claim.

Yes it is.

Trying to disprove someone using facts is making claims based on evidence. So I doubt you were asking me for more proof if you were this convinced.

Actually I believe I said that you had no proof from the very start. Did you prove me wrong?

No, tell me.

I am telling you, what ever you say it is.

What do you mean it doesn't make a difference. It sounds nihilistic.

If I'm right or wrong will not make a difference at all in this life.

You really don't strike me as someone who accepts they could be wrong sensing how convinced you sound. Why would you like to be a fool like me?

Just because I am sure that you can be wrong, that does not mean that I don't accept that I can be wrong.

You also said anything is possible, yet you were speaking with conviction when saying that you had experienced the illusion of self. I don't know what time zone it is there but maybe it's getting late?

Not late at all.

I am convinced but, since I accept that I can be wrong then, that possibility exists.

Said the christian when confronted evidence.

Don't know what that is supposed to mean.

a reply to: daskakik

Actually I believe I said that you had no proof from the very start. Did you prove me wrong?

Well my point was you said you werent making any claims when you obviously were.
I don't know if I can prove you wrong honestly. If it's true you are talking about something which could be loopholes infinitely then I'm not sure I can disprove if everything your going to say is "it doesn't matter"

I am telling you, what ever you say it is.

I'm honestly doubting we mean the same thing by it but if your too lazy then ok.

If I'm right or wrong will not make a difference at all in this life.

Why wouldn't it?

I am convinced but, since I accept that I can be wrong then, that possibility exists.

I don't know how open you are to that though based on our talk.

Just because I am sure that you can be wrong, that does not mean that I don't accept that I can be wrong.

So this implies on some level that you aren't completely sure I am wrong and that you might be. But then again people can say they are open, but secretly they really just want to be right. I don't know though, I'm just rambling.

Don't know what that is supposed to mean.

Let's say an athiest and a christian have a conversation. The athiest says "There is no proof for the existence of god"
then a typical counter argument for that would be "well I've experienced differently" as if he has experienced god therefore it exists.
So my point was that "I've experienced differently" isn't always a good counter argument because experienced can be flawed and not in line with logic like in the case with christian get it?

originally posted by: Andy1144
Well my point was you said you werent making any claims when you obviously were.

Obviously I am making some but not many about the subject of the thread.

I'm not sure I can disprove if everything your going to say is "it doesn't matter"

Proof to me means hard evidence. I'm pretty sure you don't have that.

I'm honestly doubting we mean the same thing by it but if your too lazy then ok.

Not to lazy just don't see the point. I keep telling you that we are talking about the same thing and you keep doubting because I say I am unimpressed.

Why wouldn't it?

Why would it?

I don't know how open you are to that though based on our talk.

Well you have to come with something more convincing.

I'm down with anything if there is something substantial backing it up.

So this implies on some level that you aren't completely sure I am wrong and that you might be. But then again people can say they are open, but secretly they really just want to be right. I don't know though, I'm just rambling.

I am being honest while poking a liitle fun.

Let's say an athiest and a christian have a conversation. The athiest says "There is no proof for the existence of god"
then a typical counter argument for that would be "well I've experienced differently" as if he has experienced god therefore it exists.
So my point was that "I've experienced differently" isn't always a good counter argument because experienced can be flawed and not in line with logic like in the case with christian get it?

Yeah but in this conversation I am the atheist.

a reply to: daskakik

Proof to me means hard evidence. I'm pretty sure you don't have that.

I have to shoot that right back at you although I've just realized you haven't made any solid arguments. Except I think one.
You say nothing makes a difference. Can you elaborate. What exactly do you mean?

Yeah but in this conversation I am the atheist.

Fine, I'll be the christian then..

originally posted by: Andy1144
I have to shoot that right back at you although I've just realized you haven't made any solid arguments. Except I think one.

I have no proof of my experiences. I will never tell anyone that my stories are proof of anything.

You say nothing makes a difference. Can you elaborate. What exactly do you mean?

I'm not sure I said that. In this recent group of posts I did say that whether I am right or wrong won't make a difference. It means just that.

Fine, I'll be the christian then..

That was easy.

a reply to: daskakik

I have no proof of my experiences. I will never tell anyone that my stories are proof of anything.

Yes you did actually. By telling me that you experienced DE and used that experience as proof that it was no big deal.

I'm not sure I said that. In this recent group of posts I did say that whether I am right or wrong won't make a difference. It means just that.

So does it matter if one suffers more or less? You seem to be saying it's no better or worse.

If something is proven to have benefits over another thing, doesn't this mean that whatever is more beneficial is better and matters?

originally posted by: Andy1144


And I say this a lot, but on a relative level we can still divide direct experience not direct experience as a tool.

I am having trouble understanding what you mean - would you elaborate please?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

When doing self inquiry, it is necessary to focus on direct experience instead of having assumptions about our experience.
In this sense there is a division between DE and not direct experience.
Ultimately there is only DE, but on the relative aspect, we can divide things into DE and not DE to do the self inquiries because it is useful.

The mind is being controlled no one but having some illusion of control is necessary to function. It is a sort of tool in this sense, although unreal.

originally posted by: Andy1144
Yes you did actually. By telling me that you experienced DE and used that experience as proof that it was no big deal.

I never said it was proof. If you take me at my word then fine and if not well, here we are, no big deal.

So does it matter if one suffers more or less? You seem to be saying it's no better or worse.

It makes no difference to me if you suffer more or less. I think this is true for everyone when speaking about 99.999% of the rest of the population.

If something is proven to have benefits over another thing, doesn't this mean that whatever is more beneficial is better and matters?

Sure, but you have not proven that that is the case.

What I got from the links about just saying F-it was that being selfish has the same benefits. They didn't say that but that was what they were addressing.

a reply to: daskakik

If makes no difference to me if you suffer more or less. I think this is true for everyone when speaking about 99.999% of the rest of the population.

Well experience is all personal so of course someone else's experience is theirs alone. But that doesn't mean you don't help someone if they need it right?

Sure, but you have not proven that that is the case.
What I got from the links about just saying F-it was that being selfish has the same benefits. They didn't say that but that was what they were addressing.

Proven it is the case with what?

originally posted by: Andy1144
Well experience is all personal so of course someone else's experience is theirs alone. But that doesn't mean you don't help someone if they need it right?

You keep repeating this but that is also irrelevant to the question.

If you help someone, that isn't a DE for them so, whatever benefit exists isn't because of DE.

Proven it is the case with what?

It is what you keep saying someone can accomplish with DE.

a reply to: daskakik

No, let's just start fresh, forget about DE for now.

Let's pretend I never mentioned DE. Would it make a difference if someone suffered less or not.
Obviously, not to your personal experience, but as I've said, helping someone else have a better experience.
Yes or no.

originally posted by: Andy1144
Let's pretend I never mentioned DE. Would it make a difference if someone suffered less or not.
Obviously, not to your personal experience, but as I've said, helping someone else have a better experience.
Yes or no.

What constitutes a difference?

Who is it going to make a difference to?

The butterfly effect says that everything makes a difference but you can't know whether the result is better or worse.

a reply to: daskakik

To know whether the result is better or worse for what? For everything?

So we can't even know that drinking sewer water is worse for you then drinking good water?

I would just like to point to something which is often overlooked, because of the word absolute. Although we cannot impact it in any way, but we can impact each other and I believe that unconditional love in it's most pure sense and strength is the most powerful force in the universe.

If it is true that only one conciousness exists suffering is naturally something which you want to prevent in others, because it is the same as looking in the mirror at yourself be it animal or plant or other beings...and hurting others means hurting yourself and vice versa with helping! Not because of any sense of merit for good deeds, but just because everything in existence is essentially the same. ONE!
That is why I believe all true saint were and are symbol of compassion and love and they give all their teachings for free to the one who is prepared to listen and learn. Only by sharing and feeling love all around you can get to ultimate blissful state where body and mind dissolved in the absolute and are like a shrine devoted to god and devoid of all human sufferings. it is a tool through which the absolute is working.

And it is natural that with good or bad thinking we have a deep impact on all around us. I would go even so far to say that distance or time does not matter and every thought counts. It is like a butterfly effect. Maybe?

Also daskakik what is you philosophy, you are very engaged in this thread but always so mysterious and vague. So in simple therms, what do you think about real nature of us and existence? I am just wondering what you think out of curiosity and I am not trying to prove something...

Also how wired is that we both were using the same phrase "The butterfly effect" while typing the post at the same time!?? I swear I did not read your post, I was typing mine and then read all the new posts which were made during typing...this just proves my point...about thoughts??