It's time to wake up!

originally posted by: Andy1144
The illusion isn't real but the experience of it is real

You are trying to have it both ways. If you are experiencing an illusion and the illusion isn't real then the experience isn't real.

Being trapped in the illusion makes the experience seem real.

This point of view denies the relative truth too much and only addresses the absolute. This isn't the full picture and I tried to make this point in my other thread, "non-duality VS creating your reality."

What happened to "There is only the now"?

a reply to: daskakik

The experience of the illusion is real. Even "seems" real is still a real experience.

originally posted by: Andy1144
The experience of the illusion is real. Even "seems" real is still a real experience.

I'm not the one trying to claim truth and then making exceptions to it.

a reply to: daskakik

I don't understand what your implying here. I only replied to you saying experience only seems real, it isn't real.

Please read this.

"This is the paradox. The illusion is NOT real, but it is a REAL illusion. You cannot discard everything as not existing because it is illusion. The illusion is here, look around you. It’s a real illusion. It’s a real dream, a real movie. But dreams, movies and illusions themselves in the broadest perspective, are not real. Maharshi says, when you realize a mirage isn’t water, the mirage still remains and still appears as water, the only difference is now you know that it is only an illusion. Thus you are free from it.

In order to go all the way, you must realize that “Emptiness is form; form is emptiness.” as the Buddhists might say, or “The world is illusory, Brahman alone is real; Brahman is the world.” as Maharshi says, or as I would say “Reality is a real illusion.” To only believe one aspect, such as “everything is illusion” or its counterpart “everything is real” will leave you stuck in duality. Nonduality is beyond both of those statements, yet contains both within it."

You are only dealing with one aspect, the absolute, and denying the relative by saying "none it matters" That is not the full picture. Believing so would be ignorant.

originally posted by: Andy1144
You are only dealing with one aspect, the absolute, and denying the relative by saying "none it matters" That is not the full picture.

I never said it wasn't the full picture.

You called it an illusion and said it wasn't real and now you are claiming an exception to that rule.

a reply to: daskakik

You said it doesn't matter if you experience more suffering or not because it is all an illusion. Those were your words.
I am saying although that is true on the absolute level. It does deal with the relative.
So far you have denied all my relative arguments using the absolute truth . "Its all an illusion, so it doesn't matter."

originally posted by: Andy1144
You said it doesn't matter if you experience more suffering or not because it is all an illusion. Those were your words.
I am saying although that is true on the absolute level. It does deal with the relative.
So far you have denied all my relative arguments using the absolute truth . "Its all an illusion, so it doesn't matter."

I'm pointing out the error of calling it an illusion and not real if you are going to give it it's due importance anyway.

a reply to: daskakik

I'm sorry, I can't relate to what you're saying.

So far in this conversation my point was that it is important to see through the illusion of self in order to reduce suffering.
And I've also said it is true it doesn't make a difference on the absolute because it's an illusion, but it does on the relative.
You haven't given any counter arguments but telling me why I call certain things this or that. That's semantics, and it made my simple points a mind game.

Experience is real.

originally posted by: Andy1144
I'm sorry, I can't relate to what you're saying.

Not surprised.

So far in this conversation my point was that it is important to see through the illusion of self in order to reduce suffering.

And you have not proven that.

On the contrary you have linked 2 articles saying that you should play along.

And I've also said it is true it doesn't make a difference on the absolute because it's an illusion, but it does on the relative.

Like I pointed out, claiming one thing then making loopholes.

You haven't given any counter arguments but telling me why I call certain things this or that. That's semantics, and it made my simple points a mind game.

Seems clear cut to me.

a reply to: daskakik

So basically your saying, it's not proven that seeing through the illusion will reduce suffering?

If all there is, is this moment, then any rejection or non acceptance of this moment arises from a thought that things could be different. This is rooted in ego and thus losing the sense of self, reduces non acceptance and promotes acceptance. That's it.

But you seem to be saying that even though that might be the case it still doesnt matter because experience isnt real it only "seems" that way.
So then why eat something tasty opposes to something thats not? Its all an illusion right?

originally posted by: Andy1144
So basically your saying, it's not proven that seeing through the illusion will reduce suffering?

Well, that is one thing.

The other is that you claim that seeing through the illusion helps you realize the truth but then say that you still have to respect the relative or the experience.

No doubt the person who wrote that blog stumbled onto someone pointing the same things I have pointed out in this thread.

Let's go back to our suicidal friend. He/she is suffering. Belief in ghosts plays into your argument but for mine it doesn't matter what the reason is.

Wouldn't that end if they go through with their intention? If I get them some help and they get better it isn't DE that lowered their suffering. Either way DE has nothing to do with a change in suffering.

If I DE the situation I will just play along and not be affected by either result. There is no more or less mental suffering in any situation. The only time that there is the potential for a decrease in mental suffering is on a personal level.

Brings us right back to the start. If you are not caught up in worrying about the illusion then why is your argument based on the perseption of the relative by others?

a reply to: daskakik

What is wrong with helping others see through the illusion and help them personally have a better experience? Sure, all worry is rooted in ego, but one can be of assistance without worrying, but nontheless still participating.
Guiding others to see past the illusion will enable them to suffer less on a personal level.

On some level I am not worried about others experience since it is completely pointless (on the absolute level). I still have the urge to help others. Desire obviously still happens even after seeing past the illusion. As I said, you can still do something or help without being worried about it.

If I DE the situation I will just play along and not be affected by either result. There is no more or less mental suffering in any situation. The only time that there is the potential for a decrease in mental suffering is on a personal level.

If you fully accept the moment and abide in direct experience, you personally will not experience any suffering. The other person still may.

You're first two sentences.
It won't make any difference only after you've seen the illusion on a relative level. On the absolute, it is the same as post or pre awakening. But after awakening if you stick with DE it wont make any difference because you wont experience any more or less suffering either way. I see that point now..

originally posted by: Andy1144
What is wrong with helping others see through the illusion and help them personally have a better experience? Sure, all worry is rooted in ego, but one can be of assistance without worrying, but nontheless still participating.
Guiding others to see past the illusion will enable them to suffer less on a personal level.

Nothing wrong with it but it isn't really better or worse.

On some level I am not worried about others experience since it is completely pointless (on the absolute level). I still have the urge to help others. Desire obviously still happens even after seeing past the illusion. As I said, you can still do something or help without being worried about it.

Yes you can still make exceptions to the rule.

I find it a lot easier just to accept that DE, as explained by you and the guy at the blog that you linked, is lacking.

Easy for me since I don't have any attachment to it.

If you fully accept the moment and abide in direct experience, you personally will not experience any suffering.

I beg to differ. You definitely can experience suffering. The difference is that when it passes you let it go.

Yes that is me saying something instead of just nitpicking at DE.

The other person still may.

Of course, but, since you can't beat DE into people then all you can do is let them.

By suffering I mean mental suffering. Suffering that is rooted in the sense that this moment could be different. In other words thoughts about the experience, not just experience. Sometimes our thougthts about what we experience are worse then the actual raw direct experience. I am not saying seeing the illusion makes pain go away. It makes non accepting attitude go away.

If I get them some help and they get better it isn't DE that lowered their suffering. Either way DE has nothing to do with a change in suffering.

If they believed that ghosts were real and that belief was causing them mental suffering, then showing them that belief is an illusion will lower their personal suffering.
I am not worrying about that person on an absolute level, because everything is as it is for me because I am in DE anyway. For them it will help.

Direct experience is never not happening but goes unnoticed - seeing is happening, hearing is happening but the mental noise and the concepts and the belief in 'I am seeing' - 'I am hearing' can happen also.
All experience is direct. Does experience happen somewhere else? Even a thought about someone else, some where else, some when else happens as experience.
Can it be proven that a world exists outside perception?

originally posted by: Andy1144
By suffering I mean mental suffering. Suffering that is rooted in the sense that this moment could be different. In other words thoughts about the experience, not just experience. Sometimes our thougthts about what we experience are worse then the actual raw direct experience. I am not saying seeing the illusion makes pain go away. It makes non accepting attitude go away.

Emotional pain or mental suffering from what is going on at that moment will also be felt.

If they believed that ghosts were real and that belief was causing them mental suffering, then showing them that belief is an illusion will lower their personal suffering.

You can't show them anything. All you can do is pitch DE.

On the other hand, ending it will end the suffering and so will other types of help which have nothing to do with DE.

a reply to: daskakik

Nothing wrong with it but it isn't really better or worse.

On an absolute level yes.
On a relative level it is better to have a better experience opposed to hurting yourself.

I find it a lot easier just to accept that DE, as explained by you and the guy at the blog that you linked, is lacking.

Lacking what?

Of course, but, since you can't beat DE into people then all you can do is let them.

You cant force someone to see the illusion of a self. You can only guide them to see it if you find it is appropriate for that situation.

You definitely can experience suffering. The difference is that when it passes you let it go.

Yes. But I think you can still experience sadness without it being suffering. Sadness and suffering can be two different things depending on what you mean. For example, an enlightened person can still be sad when a close one dies. It's just that the feelings aren't rooted in non acceptance.
So being consciously in DE doesn't mean you won't experience sadness, it just means you won't reject the sadness and as you say let it pass.

a reply to: daskakik

You can't show them anything. All you can do is pitch DE.
On the other hand, ending it will end the suffering and so will other types of help which have nothing to do with DE.

I can only point it for them to see personally. Their experience has nothing to do with my DE. I am not concerned in the DE of others in this sense. But still find it helpful to guide someone see it in their own experience. Again, it's obviously all subjective.
But even me helping someone is completely subjective.