Atheists object to Christmas toy drive on Air Force base – and win

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: Annee

I would just like to point out that the academy is not really a good representation of the USAF as a whole... In any way shape or form.

I would agree that the academy is not a good representative of the USAF as a whole, it is in Colorado Springs. I served 7 years active duty, and yeah religious crap in the AF is basically out of control.

a reply to: Metallicus

The Christian effort was being sponsored by government personnel on government property.

It is not a matter, once again, of giving children toys, and frankly, you're merely lying when you imply that it is.

I've stated that very clearly as have others.

Your argument has no basis, and so you must attempt to reframe it into a matter of whether we like kids or not.

That's not the argument; the argument is whether government in the US, at any level, can establish a religion.

The answer is, according to the Constitution, it cannot.

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Metallicus

So, you're against the Constitution?

It's fine for the government to ignore religious freedom (and freedom from religion) if it feels good to you?

Nope.

Religious freedom means freedom from religion as well.

I disagree that freedom OF religion equates to freedom FROM religion.

So if I choose to worship Satan at an alter in my back yard, and Christians burn down my house and kill my family, that would be ok with you?

And that has what to with "of" v "from?"

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: DeathSlayer

You understand that this Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) group is frothing at the mouth anti-christian attack dog group right?

The "founder" despises Christianity specifically and that is his / their primary (if not only) target. They are a Christian Hate Group similar (and in bed with) the SPLC.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

So, no religious freedom for atheists or anyone you personally disagree with, only Christians?

You're in favor of Christian religious freedom; every one else can just adjust, right?

That may be your position; it is not the position of the US Constitution.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Metallicus

So, you're against the Constitution?

It's fine for the government to ignore religious freedom (and freedom from religion) if it feels good to you?

Nope.

Religious freedom means freedom from religion as well.

I disagree that freedom OF religion equates to freedom FROM religion.

So if I choose to worship Satan at an alter in my back yard, and Christians burn down my house and kill my family, that would be ok with you?

What does that have to do with separation of church and state?

That was a reply to Metallicus, you and I are on the same side in this issue. This woman should be fired, she used a government email account to promote a certain religious group. She is only a GS5, so probably a 4 year employee of the government. This is not the first complaint against her.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Government is not establishing a religion. That would mean a concerted effort made by the government to put on religion up above all others.

Simply allowing government employees to participate in charitable activities and pass information about them from their place of work is not government endorsement of religion. At the level you are talking about, simply asking your fellow employees to help with a private school fundraiser for your children if that private school happens to be religious in nature would be "government endorsement of religion."

OMG! I bought some candles from Sgt. Smith's kids, but they go to St. Mary's ... how dare he endorse religion by selling candles for his kids school? Isn't that endorsing religion?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: ketsuko

I really believe the whole thing was a misunderstanding.

How many times can the Air Force have the misunderstanding of pushing Christianity.

How many lawsuits does it take before they get the message?

The entirety of the email was found in the source provided by dawnstar. If you'd care to take a look at the actual email, you'd come to the realization that it was not an endorsement of religion.

For those that can't view the PDF containing the actual email, I'll quote it:

-----Original Message-----
From: BRANCH, VALENCIA M GS-05 USAF AMC 436 FSS/CCA
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:30 AM
To: 436 FSS Personnel Only
Subject: //Another Volunteer Oportunity//OCC Public Packing Party -
Shoeboxes
Importance: High
Team FSS GREAT VOLUNTEER OPPORTUNITY!!!!!!
See info below -- Local Point of Contact: Our very own Mr Renee
Valladeres in Civilian Personnel at 6774654
René B. Valladares
Media Volunteer
Central DelMar Operation Christmas Child (OCC)
Saturday, 24-Oct-2015. OCC Public Packing Party! Calvary Community Center,
1532 E. Lebanon Rd (DE Route 10, near Dover AFB). It starts at 8 a.m. We
plan to pack a LOT of shoeboxes, 5000+! Bring a friend or bring a group (WE
NEED YOU!). See attached flyer and feel free to share in your Christian
circles.
www.google.com...@39.120
012,-75.501513,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x89c7631852b9c573:0xa5300f6c60da
635c?hl=en

Once again, the only official endorsement I saw was that it's "GREAT VOLUNTEER OPPORTUNITY!!!!!!".


It's also only courteous to provide information on what the organization is about. Hence the flyer at the end. I don't think I'd appreciate showing up to something to only end up hanging around a bunch of people I'm not likely to agree or get along with.

a reply to: infolurker

What does any of that have to do with the content of the email? Or, since it's somebody we can label as hating Christians, suddenly the email pushing being a missionary and spreading the gift of god's love is different?

a reply to: Gryphon66

So, no religious freedom for atheists or anyone you personally disagree with, only Christians?

Finally an Atheist admits that they are indeed a religion. Thank you.

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: Annee

I would just like to point out that the academy is not really a good representation of the USAF as a whole... In any way shape or form.

I would agree that the academy is not a good representative of the USAF as a whole, it is in Colorado Springs. I served 7 years active duty, and yeah religious crap in the AF is basically out of control.

Question. Why do you think this is so prominent in the Air Force? It happens in all military branches, but the Air Force seems to be the worst offender.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Metallicus

So, you're against the Constitution?

It's fine for the government to ignore religious freedom (and freedom from religion) if it feels good to you?

Nope.

Religious freedom means freedom from religion as well.

I disagree that freedom OF religion equates to freedom FROM religion.

So if I choose to worship Satan at an alter in my back yard, and Christians burn down my house and kill my family, that would be ok with you?

And that has what to with "of" v "from?"

Because those that agree with "OF", don't seem to think that some of us don't want to listen to their BS, however anytime this topic is brought up, those of us that believe in "FROM" are hammered by the douche weasels on the "OF" side.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I am in favor of a "neutral party" and not "anti-christian activist" in my "so called" religious watchdog groups thank you.

How about this.

Substitute the word Christian with Muslim in that story and tell me what you think then.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

a reply to: Gryphon66

Why does this toy drive offend you so much? I am not Christian or even religious. Frankly it could be Muslims collecting toys for kids and it still wouldn't bother me. It is so petty and stupid to be upset by this.

a reply to: dawnstar

Many have never heard of God's
incredible free Gift of Salvation through His Son

Yep. If you think this message isn't going to find its way to the kids along with the free gifts, you are very naive (not you personally, I mean the universal "you").

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: Annee

I would just like to point out that the academy is not really a good representation of the USAF as a whole... In any way shape or form.

I would agree that the academy is not a good representative of the USAF as a whole, it is in Colorado Springs. I served 7 years active duty, and yeah religious crap in the AF is basically out of control.

Question. Why do you think this is so prominent in the Air Force? It happens in all military branches, but the Air Force seems to be the worst offender.

Personally, I think it is because the Academy is in Colorado Springs, home of Focus on the Family, and another Mega church, whose pastor enjoyed doing drugs with male prostitutes in Denver, 60 miles away.

a reply to: EternalSolace

Why did you cut off your quote at the bottom of page 5 in the pdf and leave out the entirety of the rest of the email that is on page 6?

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: Gryphon66

So, no religious freedom for atheists or anyone you personally disagree with, only Christians?

Finally an Atheist admits that they are indeed a religion. Thank you.

There'd have to be dogma and a book of belief.

Don't have either.

a reply to: Metallicus

Even if those gifts came with the preaching of Muhammad? Courtesy of your government?

originally posted by: EternalSolace

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: ketsuko

I really believe the whole thing was a misunderstanding.

How many times can the Air Force have the misunderstanding of pushing Christianity.

How many lawsuits does it take before they get the message?

The entirety of the email was found in the source provided by dawnstar. If you'd care to take a look at the actual email, you'd come to the realization that it was not an endorsement of religion.

For those that can't view the PDF containing the actual email, I'll quote it:

-----Original Message-----
From: BRANCH, VALENCIA M GS-05 USAF AMC 436 FSS/CCA
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:30 AM
To: 436 FSS Personnel Only
Subject: //Another Volunteer Oportunity//OCC Public Packing Party -
Shoeboxes
Importance: High
Team FSS GREAT VOLUNTEER OPPORTUNITY!!!!!!
See info below -- Local Point of Contact: Our very own Mr Renee
Valladeres in Civilian Personnel at 6774654
René B. Valladares
Media Volunteer
Central DelMar Operation Christmas Child (OCC)
Saturday, 24-Oct-2015. OCC Public Packing Party! Calvary Community Center,
1532 E. Lebanon Rd (DE Route 10, near Dover AFB). It starts at 8 a.m. We
plan to pack a LOT of shoeboxes, 5000+! Bring a friend or bring a group (WE
NEED YOU!). See attached flyer and feel free to share in your Christian
circles.
www.google.com...@39.120
012,-75.501513,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x89c7631852b9c573:0xa5300f6c60da
635c?hl=en

Once again, the only official endorsement I saw was that it's "GREAT VOLUNTEER OPPORTUNITY!!!!!!".


It's also only courteous to provide information on what the organization is about. Hence the flyer at the end. I don't think I'd appreciate showing up to something to only end up hanging around a bunch of people I'm not likely to agree or get along with.

It came from her official .gov email address, what part of that do you not understand? She has violated the ethics contract that she signed with the government when she was hired, her government employment should be immediately terminated. This is not the first time complaints have been filed against her, so her boss is implicated as well, he should be retired immediately.

a reply to: Shamrock6

Because the rest of the message were not her words. It was an attachment. Her words were specifically:

Team FSS GREAT VOLUNTEER OPPORTUNITY!!!!!!
See info below -- Local Point of Contact: Our very own Mr Renee
Valladeres in Civilian Personnel at 6774654

No where, in her words, did she endorse religion.


It's no different than people providing information on a topic in a thread here on ATS. Providing information on a topic does not necessarily mean an endorsement of said topic.