Christians: What's your opinion of Matthew 19:21 ('sell your possessions and give to the poor')?

Those who refuse greed and lying for mammon do walk the path of the mystics be it Yeshua, Buddha, Nanak or name not known in human history.

Hypocrites are everywhere on this earth and they refuse to do what is needed to create a peaceful co existence without their lower level ego dualistic urges (I would even call the urges demonic). The wolf in sheep skin who cannot see their own insanity since they lack self awareness and therefor cannot stand up to it.

If someone do not want to be perfect then so be it. Let them be imperfect and in a constant battle with the karma backlashes they cause. We all prove where we should be allowed to be by our actions.

a reply to: chewi

This is really hard to understand. Did he mean put yourself in peril by making yourself destitute and abandon your position of responsibility.

Yep. That's exactly what the text means.

16 Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.

17 And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.

18 And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him.

19 And when he had gone a little farther thence, he saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the ship mending their nets.

20 And straightway he called them: and they left their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants, and went after him.

Matthew 10
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.

Oh Yippie!

a reply to: StallionDuck

Using the op's take on it ,how would a poor person become perfect ? Or maybe it's only rich people that can become perfect .....or maybe no one is perfect but there is a way to perfection .... it think of that poor thief on the cross and wonder if he was rich or poor ..... There is so much more then one line commands to the Bible and it requires study ,study the scriptures daily to know if these things are so ....peace

a reply to: Profusion

I am not a communist though I am a middle ground socialist (Which is a hell of a lot more left wing than any current government in the western world).

So of course my opinion will be biased but it was my reading of the bible that affirmed and helped shape my socialist point of view, Christ said that the son of man had no place to lay his head, he came into his own and it knew him not.

He had his home taken by other and was homeless.

Think about that, out saviour was effectively homeless in his own world which he own's.

Now this page was made to market the bible to chinese and also to smooth over the false "right wing" christians point of view.
www.billionbibles.org...

If you want to understand what happened to Christianity then look no further than the conclave of nicenea which took the church out of the hand's of the people and put it in the hand's of traditional priest hood whom had simply changed deity so that they could keep there social standing in the Roman Empire, Real church's were house church's and though people did indeed seldom give up everything they had they nevertheless looked after there poor members and non was homeless as the one with a house would shelter the one without (if you have two coat's and your brother has non then give him the one you are not using).

There are two types of christian, Christian's whom are false and christians whom accept they are false and so are closer to being christian.

Another legacy of Nicenea was the reinterpreting of key part's of the new testament to justify earthly king's.
Now if you are a christian then your king is alive and well, he rose on the third day and is the king of jerusalem and god's holy kingdom.

Yet under the Nicenea false christian leaders whom led thousands in the misguided and bloody crusades offering them salvation for breaking god's law about killing actually placed a man on the throne of Jerusalem, he of course suffered leprosy and they then lost the holy land to a group of heathen's but in God's sight the heathens were more acceptable as they were at least not the hypocrite even if there faith was a lie.

Jesus is alive and he pointed out this world is evil, store up your treasure in heaven where the thief can not steal it and the moth can not ruin it, in other word's the devout capitalist whom also says he is a christian is talking out of his arse aka david cameron and such like's and they are headed for there just reward as outlined by the lord himself as they have stored up nothing in heaven but only for there own greedy self on earth.

Jesus did not condemn that man though, "it is harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven", "But for god all thing's are possible".

All the time I hear preachers prattling on about how you can ask god for money on the likes of TBN and I am frankly disgusted, Christ said this, Give us this day our daily bread (for your father know's what you need), you can ask god but it is better to ask for other's than for yourself as he know's and loves you and jesus also said "Man does not live by bread alone but by every word of God".

Wealth can serve a good purpose in the right hand's, money is the embodyment of the energy spent by people in working and it should serve the collective good of humanity but such is not the nature of earthly man, earthly man is about hoarding wealth and making himself powerful and earthly man is not heavenly man.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Using the op's take on it ,how would a poor person become perfect ?

The "poor" have an unique advantage, that is if they gracefully accept their positions.

Matthew 5
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Its all metaphors. This is a passage that tugs the conscience however. To most who are not even in that position, ie middle class is not the same as being wealthy, this is less troubling.

To me its really simple, Equality wed to Freedom. Mother wed to Father, inner and outer.

You can be sure that if you have been given miracle, assets, and mismanage it foolishly, and your children are suffering, it is a tad worse if you did this on healthy income, than if you always run out of food half way through every month because you don't have enough, and thats by our standards of poverty, there are worse ones. But that Love does not mean for you to starve your family to death and give away your children's home.

Truly there is no money in higher realms or eutopia's, this was a lesson to someone who had greed. He represents the elite group here. Who may consider themselves to have integrity, some of them, faith, but still fail to understand they were to share everything and create equality and that they're not more equal or better than any one else.

By the way, early Christians shared their belongings as well.

It was not OK to walk by those in need if you could offer help.

There is a belief in the US and its primarily a US thing, that God helps those who help themselves, and hates the poor, and that conservative equals godliness.

They totally ignore Christ, his example and how the apostles early Christians lived.

Could be why attending one of their Church's, one hears alot of the old testament being literally espounded, but not so much new testament.

We're supposed to spread equality and help those in need. Pretty easy to understand.

But we're not supposed to harm our families doing it, so this doesnt have to do with the middle class and lower, but excess.

There is probably a metaphyshical inner gnosis meaning to this as well, to do with ego.

Because the story of Abraham, Jacob, and Christ is about transcending lower mind, son of man, to higher mind, son of God or becoming your Higher Self. And it involves seeing through the world and its values, deprogramming, helping those in need, not seeking worldly fame or reputation or fortunes, and yet only those single without dependants can take on vows of poverty, so not so much about the vows of poverty as it is about giving your all, talents, and abilities to help. And then the final steps are "out of egypt". First brought Egypt for learning and then brought out, which means dissolving Ego.

Ego itself is a debated thing, what it means, and badly construed. It doesnt mean ceasing to be a person, or that you don't count, or any other person. Elites seem to push that concept on humanity and tell them their being ego based if they even think the're worthy of anything or count.

Ego is mainly false inflation, thinking you count more than another.

What Christ and his followers did, obviously to different degrees as often the stories show healing their infirm mother, in her home, so they lived in homes, not caves, and had some degree of materialism in order to survive, was give of themselves to the degree they could excluding other responsibilities.

For example ask yourself if the stories are taken literally not metaphorically, would Peter have been a good man to have abandoned his wife and children and followed Christ as an apostle, if like in a poor family, he was the sole provider and they had no wealth, savings or family to look after them.

Do you think God would have approved of making your family homeless, and your children's deaths or tragedies, so you could play hero?

Would that have been heroic?

No, it would be massive ego of the apostles trying to spiritually advance by harming their loved ones.

None of this means literal stories, and if they could be taken in a literally, there is a lot not being said, such as Peter had a house and savings, and his family had good support around them to watch over and provide.

Death of Ego means death of greed basically, and being able to be a hero, give when its hard and you get persecuted.

For some people, selling what they have and helping others would be important. I can see Rothchild's and even Catholic Church having some issues there.

a reply to: Profusion
I was in another thread a couple days ago talking about trolling.
I was genuinely interested because I was unsure what the official meaning of 'trolling' was.

It was pointed out that it is a comment written with the intension of provoking others.

From your post history on Christianity I would say this thread fits into that description.

I see ATS has come through though and answered your 'questions' regardless of the original intent. The OP may not find this information useful, but many others who may question their faith based on the OP's tactics will be reaffirmed due to this.
So thank you OP for reaffirming my faith

And thank you infolurker, Murgatroid and others for taking the time to answer the OP, whatever the original motivation for this thread was.

This also reminds me of a conversation with a University Professor, Anglican Minster who was temporarily called into a parish.

One of the parables that divided scholars, was relating to the Beggar, and the Rich Man. In the end, the beggar who was covered in wounds that the rich man's dogs would lick, was held in the arms of Abraham and the rich man saw him, and from the fires of the pit, asked for some water on a sponge.

He explained to me that some of the scholars believed this was about riches versus communism and that the rich man was in hell because of money.

And he related the proverbial easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.

But in reality, he explained, ALL of the parables of this nature were complete. All things to the outcome were in the story, as if it was a complete novel with a theme.

So you had to ask, why was the poor man in heaven since it never once said he was a good man, who didn't curse god or feel anger at his situation. There was no mention of his virtues.

The only virtue he had was his extreme poverty.

So it is about FREE WILL.

It didn't matter whether the poor man was saintly or not.

He was so extremely unwell and traumatized on every level, that he had no longer any free will. Now, in a world where there is abundant food, growth, solutions so that anyone's suffering is a matter of an artificial thought process, greed, ism/program/poltical belief, ie belief of another, not a natural thing, but forced by the minds of people who are so out to lunch they don't get that you can't violate equality in any way, before you go and dot your t's on your philosophies, and branch into your ideas of economics, or physchology, or religion, that the abc's and 123's of life have to be met. This was about free will.

The poor man's was gone. He didn't have any, and so it was accorded to him as if he had chosen correctly. Because that is truly what Love does.

ie Picture the most loving mother on earth and 2 children, one is mentally and physically handicapped. She covers him with her love and understanding.

The rich man was not in hell because he was rich, like some of the scholars taught.

He obviously was sound in mind and body and had free will.

He had chosen to walk by and ignore the plight of someone in need, and probably rationalized, well if I help him they'll all expect me to help them.

Or the common, he should be able to heal himself and get to work or he's a useless eater, he thinks he counts, he thinks he's priviliged.

Any number of political or even elitist religious ideologies, ie many believed that if you're rich its because you're a class above and good and beasts are living in squander, or believe strongly in KARMA, there is always some rationalization or belief program that blocks people from truly seeing GOD within all, and their Love/Equality emerging.

So its not about how much money, but what you do with your money.

Someone suggested to me, that Christianity was a book of morality and compassion that was useful for the middle class and poor, to encourage sharing, not that they all become homeless.

But that Buddism was a good example for the wealthy, and due to their money often having blood and bad karma on it, needed to follow Buddha's footsteps and leave position of power and wealth to live with and help the poor.

Maybe....

a reply to: Unity_99

You are correct, he was not in hell because he was rich but because he had the choice to help the poor man and did not.

Blessed are the merciful for they shall recieve mercy.

Christ associated himself with the poor when he said what you do unto the least of these you do unto me.

The analogy of the mother with the children is elegant and correct also, she does not love one more than the other but the one who is ill need's her more so she invests more into loving him for that reason but she still loves both equally and that is god with the poor and the rich man, he does love both equally but he want's the rich man to help his brother and by doing so help his God so that his God can remember that and return his love when HE need's it.

God does not wan't any of us to be lost but he will not reward evil/selfishness/cruelty or uncaring people, he gave us empathy which is one of his own emotions and if we do not feel it and/or do not act on it then we are rejecting him within ourselve's, obviously he gave us a mind to judge as well and with that Jesus pointed out that if and as we judge other's we shall be judged accordingly.

a reply to: Unity_99

No, it would be massive ego of the apostles trying to spiritually advance by harming their loved ones.

None of this means literal stories, and if they could be taken in a literally, there is a lot not being said, such as Peter had a house and savings, and his family had good support around them to watch over and provide.

Are you sure that Peter didn't sell his house and give everything to the "church"?

Acts 5
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Bad things happened to people who withheld their money from the apostles in the 1st century!

a reply to: windword

After the Church was being formed, or prior? Because he had a family and his mother was sick and in her house, when Christ healed her, so don't think any of them did that.

But when they started meeting together, it may have been more communal for some of them, and less for others.

If Peter abandoned his family, then he wasn't a hero or a good man, he was a misognynst creep. And alot of what is written, such as forsaking family and loved ones for God, isn't literal, those are gnostic and refer to going within, selling all you have for the inner pearl of wisdom (as opposed to the outer gossip and isms, and political, social, economic, religious programs), it has to do with seeing through the world and choosing integrity and spirit first and foremost, and operating out of the space of heart/mind/soul/faith, it doesnt literally mean leaving your family.

You can't do that and be good.

a reply to: Unity_99

If Peter abandoned his family, then he wasn't a hero or a good man, he was a misognynst creep.

I agree with that sentiment. Personally, I believe the 1st century church emulated the Essene society, which was totally communal.

a reply to: Unity_99

I would disagree on that one point about peter for the following reason, He truly believed the call of christ and somehow knew his family would be fine of that I am certain.
You don't abandon your family for christ you leave them in his care or in that case the care of his community as I believe that he would not have left them if he had thought they could not survive without him.
This is the man remember whom preached, was imprisoned and travelled around the empire before finally being crucified upside down for christ and he remember is someone we may very well have to meet as after all christ made him the foundation of the church.

a reply to: LABTECH767

But Christ in the Christian beliefs is God, so He would have been filled in. Actually what seems much more likely is that his family were fairly well off, fishermen like loggers here, tend to do well, have houses paid for etc, and that arrangements and resources were made, much like a man going overseas in military, his family wasn't abandoned. And afterwards they were together. I think it was a temporary arrangement that was agreed upon.

originally posted by: Revolution9
a reply to: Profusion

It is impossible for us to be perfect. We would not have needed Christ if it were possible.

Christ is pretty amazing. If you REALLY do what He says it is quite beautiful what happens back. Try it and see, doubting Thomas!

It is only impossible for us to be perfect without Christ.

If Christ is within you and your teacher then you can follow him at all times. If you follow the Holy Spirit you can be made perfect and be "Like Christ".

You are born in ignorance, but if the Spirit of Christ is in you, you are being raised to his perfection.

Christians are supposed to be perfectly obedient to God's laws, because they claim that perfection lives within them. Jesus said sin no more, Paul said sinners have no part in the church and should be kicked out until they repent. Moses taught obedience to the Law.

Jesus Christ is the perfect Holy Spirit.

If you obey a spirit of imperfection, what spirit are you following?

Original Sin - perpetual imperfection, the doctrine of the anti-christ.

If you really do what Christ taught you will sin no more. You will put to death your sinful mind and be raised into his perfection. It is amazing to know that we can overcome all sin in our life through the perfect Holy Spirit.

a reply to: infolurker

Your Best is not good enough... that is the lesson here and he proved it to this man.

Gag me. What all the little children are told from when they are toddlers.

"Perfect"

Sometimes is never quite enough
If you're flawless, then you'll win my love
Don't forget to win first place
Don't forget to keep that smile on your face

Be a good boy
Try a little harder
You've got to measure up
And make me prouder

How long before you screw it up
How many times do I have to tell you to hurry up
With everything I do for you
The least you can do is keep quiet

Be a good girl
You've gotta try a little harder
That simply wasn't good enough
To make us proud

I'll live through you
I'll make you what I never was
If you're the best, then maybe so am I
Compared to him compared to her
I'm doing this for your own damn good
You'll make up for what I blew
What's the problem...why are you crying

Be a good boy
Push a little farther now
That wasn't fast enough
To make us happy
We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect

That thinking makes people SICK. Therefore, if you think like that, and teach your own children that, you are SICK.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

My child was born ignorant. But through knowledge and the spirit of perfection she will reach perfection because she was made in the image of perfection.

This is what my daughter has been taught.

I would never tell she is not good enough, that is absolutely insane psychology.

a reply to: Isurrender73

My child was born ignorant.

No, she was not. Her soul already knows some stuff. She was born INNOCENT (as opposed to being born "worthless" and "corrupt" and a "sinner" and "responsilbe" for the death of Jesus.) This is what little kids are taught all too often:

But through knowledge and the spirit of perfection she will reach perfection because she was made in the image of perfection.

No. She will have flaws IN THIS LIFETIME. We ALL have flaws, living here on this planet.

This is what my daughter has been taught.

I would never tell she is not good enough, that is absolutely insane psychology.

Sounds like mixed signals to me. Although I do agree that EVENTUALLY all of us will rejoin the Divine Oneness....but it is only doable via many many lifetimes and an immense amount of EXPERIENCES. I believe in reincarnation and soul progress.

a reply to: Profusion

If it's an order from Jesus, why haven't I seen one Christian do it?

Almost always the scriptures are not understood in contextual manner.
This was not directed to Christians because believers of Jesus were not named then as Christians. This was directed to a very rich Jewish man who said that he obeyed the commands of Moses. All people do not have wealth enough to give to the poor so it would be silly to say that this was directed to any particular group of people and just as silly to say that all Christians should latch a short sword on their hip and go out to proselytize the gospel. Not even close.

This was directed to a man who thought he was something special and was shown that he was not. Jesus hit him in his bank book and the guy then took off running.

As far as you not seeing one Christian giving all to the poor including their very own life is because you haven't paid that much attention to the world about you. Thousands of people have and are doing this very thing today but are never heard of because the headlines don't sell that kind of story. Catholic nuns and priests have done and are doing this today and no, I am not Catholic. Doctors have treated Ebola and many other diseases and have died doing it. Missionaries from all denominations have and are still doing this very thing today. Many are not even Christians who give their lives and wealth.

The whole jest of Matthew 19:16-21 was that this man was to replace his wealth and then give his life to be perfect. Nothing is greater than to lay down your life for another person except that of love. If one does not have love then even laying down ones life is not the answer and that is where Jesus hit this guy with what his true love was. It was the guy's pocket book. finish it off with verses 22 and 23 and get the entire story.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I believe reincarnation is a mind trap for those who refuse to believe in perfection in one lifetime.

Siddhartha Gautama - taught that everyone could become Buddah in one lifetime. It is a philosophy called equanimity and where the idea of all men are created equal originates.

My daughter was not born perfect but she will become perfect in God's law in this lifetime.

If you don't agree you might as well tell your child that they are not good enough and they will have to come back until they become good enough.