Failure to Retain God in our Knowledge has led to to Societal Degrade

a reply to: SuperFrog

Actually, tell you the truth, today religions are not really following what they used to call 'gods will or god's word' - so you don't see people selling their daughters into slavery, or not following instruction to kill neighbor if they see him working on Sunday.

no
you have things skewed
some religions are still doing the things you claim but Christianity in general does not because OF THE NEW TESTAMENT AND THE CROSS.

same ole crazy generalized outdated point of view.

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: SuperFrog

Maybe you should rewatch those shows if you think they don't have an animist system of religion in place.

The USSR had no religion. Yet slavery, political witch hunts and much more existed there as well.

It seems to me that not only you don't know about religion, but history might be not your strong side either.

If you knew thing or two about USSR, you would know that treatment of religion there was response for Church siding socialists just before October revolution in 1917. Destruction and persecution followed and it lasted until WWII, when Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church to intensify patriotic support.

What that has to do with moral, this topic and what is your point??

Is this another Hitler and Stalin are atheists, and that is how bad atheism is?!

Oh please. Mao Pol pot, yeah atheism like religion can be bad get over it.

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
a reply to: deadeyedick

Ok lets try again, you said anyone could buy a dead baby, no proof at all either, so prove me wrong, go buy one and ill send you a big bag of cash, go ahead i dare ya.

I said anyone could if they had the money

you keep wantin to leave that part out.

Just call around if you are interested

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: SuperFrog

Ok maybe there is a language barrier issue here. You are talking about how much better the world would be without religion. I give you a real world example of an entire empire that was officially atheist (yes the orthodox church was permitted limited influence but only to be used politically. If they chastised the state in any way they would have been sent off to a work camp)

You mention isolated tribes but for some reason you think they are atheist because they were not influenced by the Aztecs? Do you know what animism is?

World would be better without religion, but I have not said that anywhere, but you assumed it.

But as I said, example with USSR is just fail, as that firstly was not atheist country, as I mentioned, Stalin reintegrated religion to gain patriotic support for ongoing war and German invasion.

We did not have country yet that was free of religion, nor we will have it soon. It will take generations to educate masses and to promote rational rather then mysticism and superstition.

For example, today when something hurts you, you don't go to ask priest to provide cure through prayer, nor you go to witch to ask her to prepare you potion?! (at least I hope you don't)

It took long time for us to get there, but you still have places on our little planet where people believe in superstition, like Africa. Just search 'albino kids in Africa'.

I might find documentary and post it here regarding some tribes that don't have anything similar to religion. They survived only thanks to location, because similar tribes were destroyed as pagans tribes by religion. You can read more about this here: en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: deadeyedick
no
you have things skewed
some religions are still doing the things you claim but Christianity in general does not because OF THE NEW TESTAMENT AND THE CROSS.

same ole crazy generalized outdated point of view.

Right... www.answering-christianity.com...

originally posted by: luthier
Oh please. Mao Pol pot, yeah atheism like religion can be bad get over it.

1. Where did I claim atheism is not bad or can't be bad?

2. Atheism is just absence of religion.

3. Topic is about moral and religion... or rather claim that absence of religion is reason bad things are happening, where we have rather lot of data and evidence to claim that religion is rather cause of lots of suffering of humankind. From wars, to recent discrimination... all in name of God(s). you rather off topic here, aren't you??

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Can you point us that "Golden Era" of human history when people didn't commit atrocities, when humanity wasn't a commodity?

When we fail to keep God in our Knowledge?

If that is true, that would be our absent father "God's" fault.

a reply to: SuperFrog

So Mao and polpot were in the name of God? They have some of the highest murder numbers in history.

If you read my posts you would see we agree about morality and religion aren't always the same friends.

I just don't go on generalized rants of anger.

By the way there is a whole branch of Christianity called apologetics dedicated to reason. I don't follow the faith but I respect it.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: SuperFrog

So Mao and polpot were in the name of God? They have some of the highest murder numbers in history.

If you read my posts you would see we agree about morality and religion aren't always the same friends.

I just don't go on generalized rants of anger.

Generalized rants of anger??

Funny...

You claim about atheism by using Mao as example is just like telling humans are cruel because Germans, who are humans did inhuman things. Today atheism has nothing to do with Mao and their political agenda/ideology that keeps people imprisoned in system even today.

Same with North Korea, Russia (USSR before) today or in past century.

My point is that we, humans, have potential to learn and do great things, religion is not required to do them. Sure, we are capable to do bad thing, but absence of religion is not required at all to do them, as seen from many examples in this thread.

More religion is not solution, and thankfully, even in places such as USA we see drop in those believing...

Abortion is as old as humans are. This day & age is nothing new about the process ,except it's safer and more reliable. Free will, we as humans have it...bible thumpers say God gave us free will. So don't blame the woman or an agency lay the blame square on the feet of God.

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: SuperFrog

So Mao and polpot were in the name of God? They have some of the highest murder numbers in history.

If you read my posts you would see we agree about morality and religion aren't always the same friends.

I just don't go on generalized rants of anger.

Generalized rants of anger??

Funny...

You claim about atheism by using Mao as example is just like telling humans are cruel because Germans, who are humans did inhuman things. Today atheism has nothing to do with Mao and their political agenda/ideology that keeps people imprisoned in system even today.

Same with North Korea, Russia (USSR before) today or in past century.

My point is that we, humans, have potential to learn and do great things, religion is not required to do them. Sure, we are capable to do bad thing, but absence of religion is not required at all to do them, as seen from many examples in this thread.

More religion is not solution, and thankfully, even in places such as USA we see drop in those believing...

Well if you could comprehend I was responding to your claim all wars were over God. Which is not true. Wars are over resources most often. Whatever the king or preacher uses to rally the troops is incidental to the actual reason.


Second we agree. On some things here too did you miss that in your anger about religion?

Did you see where I keep saying men and women do horrible things in any time in any belief system?

originally posted by: luthier
Well if you could comprehend I was responding to your claim all wars were over God.

Where did I claim that???

originally posted by: luthier
Which is not true. Wars are over resources most often. Whatever the king or preacher uses to rally the troops is incidental to the actual reason.

It would work great if there were not Crusades... or other 'holy' wars...

originally posted by: luthier
Second we agree. On some things here too did you miss that in your anger about religion?

Oh, you don't know me... this is not anger, but rather fast exchange of arguments. As someone who loves history, it saddens me that our history is filled with atrocities by something that large amount of people today take as ground for morale - religion?! It never was, it will never be.. even new pope does help, but he is fighting with institution that he leads... as it is clearly leading them against teachings they used for centuries...

originally posted by: luthier
Did you see where I keep saying men and women do horrible things in any time in any belief system?

Nop, where?

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: ChesterJohn

Failure to Retain God in our Knowledge has led to to Societal Degrade

You are so right OP. Let's go back to the days when you could buy a wife for a paltry 200 Philistine foreskins. Yeah, those were the good old days. Maybe go back to stoning people outside the city too. That would be great, wouldn't it? Maybe a few slaves while we're at it. I think the bible has a pretty good tutorial on owning them. Oh, and those pesky gays. I say killem all and let God sort them out.

No doubt about it. Being a secular nation has been our downfall. Autonomy. Ha! Who needs it, eh?

Yes being secular has been great. But how about the athesit communist nations? Lots of apples and oranges debating going on.

Men and women do horrible things. Everywhere in every time in every belief system. That is the only fact here.

What about "atheist communist nations"? The OP was lamenting about God, as if that would have stopped anyone from committing mass murder. My response simply pointed out that "retaining god" has made no difference historically, or recently. In fact, things are better now than they have ever been historically, since it's against the law to do many of the atrocious acts listed as acceptable in the bible, and other religious texts.
At least you don't have to make your wife live in a tent out back for 30 days, while she's menstruating, because she's "unclean" during that time. Although you might have to stone her if she comes out to soon. Excuse me, there's a man here who wants to buy my daughter. I have to inspect the livestock he brought for blemishes.

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: luthier
Well if you could comprehend I was responding to your claim all wars were over God.

Where did I claim that???

originally posted by: luthier
Which is not true. Wars are over resources most often. Whatever the king or preacher uses to rally the troops is incidental to the actual reason.

It would work great if there were not Crusades... or other 'holy' wars...

originally posted by: luthier
Second we agree. On some things here too did you miss that in your anger about religion?

Oh, you don't know me... this is not anger, but rather fast exchange of arguments. As someone who loves history, it saddens me that our history is filled with atrocities by something that large amount of people today take as ground for morale - religion?! It never was, it will never be.. even new pope does help, but he is fighting with institution that he leads... as it is clearly leading them against teachings they used for centuries...

originally posted by: luthier
Did you see where I keep saying men and women do horrible things in any time in any belief system?

Nop, where?

Holy wars were for conquest no? Sure people made crap up why they were expanding therir trade ports. Also read closely. MOST OFTEN.

Where did I post that about mankind being barborous in any belief? On every page of this thread.

And yes read your own words a couple posts up about wars being about God.

a reply to: Klassified

You are still selling your daughters off only the terms and conditions have changed....The good thing for her now is she is free to choose to be an astronaut, porn star, drug addict, or vapid consumer.

You fall back on misconceived notions of the old testament without ever acknowledging the new testament. Who do you think was calling for these reforms that bettered peoples lives such as ending slavery?

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: ChesterJohn

Failure to Retain God in our Knowledge has led to to Societal Degrade

You are so right OP. Let's go back to the days when you could buy a wife for a paltry 200 Philistine foreskins. Yeah, those were the good old days. Maybe go back to stoning people outside the city too. That would be great, wouldn't it? Maybe a few slaves while we're at it. I think the bible has a pretty good tutorial on owning them. Oh, and those pesky gays. I say killem all and let God sort them out.

No doubt about it. Being a secular nation has been our downfall. Autonomy. Ha! Who needs it, eh?

Yes being secular has been great. But how about the athesit communist nations? Lots of apples and oranges debating going on.

Men and women do horrible things. Everywhere in every time in every belief system. That is the only fact here.

What about "atheist communist nations"? The OP was lamenting about God, as if that would have stopped anyone from committing mass murder. My response simply pointed out that "retaining god" has made no difference historically, or recently. In fact, things are better now than they have ever been historically, since it's against the law to do many of the atrocious acts listed as acceptable in the bible, and other religious texts.
At least you don't have to make your wife live in a tent out back for 30 days, while she's menstruating, because she's "unclean" during that time. Although you might have to stone her if she comes out to soon. Excuse me, there's a man here who wants to buy my daughter. I have to inspect the livestock he brought for blemishes.

Hey I read the billboard too you don't need to parrot it. By the way I am an agnostic Diest so just keep spouting your cynical anger. If you understood debate you may know why it doesn't work.
Thats the largest way William Lane Craig won his debates. Atheists got so mad he just tears up their logic even though he isn't necessarily proving his own point. Atheist should learn from him to become better debators. And yeah even people like Hitchins and prominant Atheists think he was the best before you go and claim more garbage out of defense.

originally posted by: luthier
Holy wars were for conquest no? Sure people made crap up why they were expanding therir trade ports. Also read closely. MOST OFTEN.

Sure, some conquest, but religion was used as tool to separate people... here is short introduction on wiki about crusades:

This article is about the medieval religious military campaigns. For other uses, see Crusades (disambiguation).
A map of the Eastern Mediterranean in 1135, showing established crusader territories and their neighbours

The Crusades were military campaigns sanctioned by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages. In 1095 Byzantine Emperor Alexios I, in Constantinople, sent an ambassador to Pope Urban II in Italy pleading for military help against the growing Turkish threat. The Pope responded promptly by calling Catholic soldiers to join the First Crusade. The immediate goal was to guarantee pilgrims access to the holy sites in the Holy Land under Muslim control. His long-range goal was to reunite the Eastern and Western branches of Christendom after their split in 1054 with the pope as head of the united Church. A complex 200-year struggle ensued...

originally posted by: luthier
Where did I post that about mankind being barborous in any belief? On every page of this thread.

Sorry, but I just see mostly negative comments about atheism... will re-read topic and check later tonight...

originally posted by: luthier
And yes read your own words a couple posts up about wars being about God.

I never said all wars are in name of God, but that many in our history were. Even some recent had some religious elements, for example Balkan wars, Sudan, or genocide in Rwanda.

If you really interested in this topic, I suggest you read following: Confronting genocide : Judaism, Christianity, Islam

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: luthier
Holy wars were for conquest no? Sure people made crap up why they were expanding therir trade ports. Also read closely. MOST OFTEN.

Sure, some conquest, but religion was used as tool to separate people... here is short introduction on wiki about crusades:

This article is about the medieval religious military campaigns. For other uses, see Crusades (disambiguation).
A map of the Eastern Mediterranean in 1135, showing established crusader territories and their neighbours

The Crusades were military campaigns sanctioned by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages. In 1095 Byzantine Emperor Alexios I, in Constantinople, sent an ambassador to Pope Urban II in Italy pleading for military help against the growing Turkish threat. The Pope responded promptly by calling Catholic soldiers to join the First Crusade. The immediate goal was to guarantee pilgrims access to the holy sites in the Holy Land under Muslim control. His long-range goal was to reunite the Eastern and Western branches of Christendom after their split in 1054 with the pope as head of the united Church. A complex 200-year struggle ensued...

originally posted by: luthier
Where did I post that about mankind being barborous in any belief? On every page of this thread.

Sorry, but I just see mostly negative comments about atheism... will re-read topic and check later tonight...

originally posted by: luthier
And yes read your own words a couple posts up about wars being about God.

I never said all wars are in name of God, but that many in our history were. Even some recent had some religious elements, for example Balkan wars, Sudan, or genocide in Rwanda.

If you really interested in this topic, I suggest you read following: Confronting genocide : Judaism, Christianity, Islam

So all those people were prospering and they just decided to get rid of each other?

I am looking more anthropologically tha n history. Why? Because you train yourself to judge as little as possible through the etic and emic perspective.

Yes some wars are religious. Most wars are over prosperity, jealousy, and resources.

I understand that is what you SEE. But its not what the majority of my posts are. Atheism is neutral neither bad or good. As most beliefs are. It's the individuals that are good or bad.

I have natural prejudice too. I just work very hard to understand its my issue not the object of the prejudice. What is reality? What we constitute.

a reply to: NihilistSanta

You are still selling your daughters off only the terms and conditions have changed....The good thing for her now is she is free to choose to be an astronaut, porn star, drug addict, or vapid consumer.

Key words. "Free to choose". Under biblical law, she wouldn't have any choice at all. At least now, she has a choice, such as it is.

You fall back on misconceived notions of the old testament without ever acknowledging the new testament. Who do you think was calling for these reforms that bettered peoples lives such as ending slavery?

Misconceived? The old testament is quite clear, and the practice of many of those laws carried right over into the Christian era. It was only after decades and even centuries for some of those practices to finally fall out of favor. And secular law is one of the reasons they did. Unfortunately, some of them still exist. This "Christian" country was just fine with slavery until the civil war, and oppressing women until the 20th century. It was a secular government that changed all that. Even now, we're still trying to change oppressive and bigoted laws that are dominionist Christian in nature, and infringe on peoples rights.

a reply to: luthier

Hey I read the billboard too you don't need to parrot it. By the way I am an agnostic Diest so just keep spouting your cynical anger. If you understood debate you may know why it doesn't work.

First. Let me assure you I am not angry in the least. If I didn't enjoy this, I would stop doing it.
Cynical? Sure, to a degree. Especially when it concerns religion. I spent my decades as a Christian.
I don't use tactics. I post my point of view, and expect others to do the same.

Thats the largest way William Lane Craig won his debates. Atheists got so mad he just tears up their logic even though he isn't necessarily proving his own point. Atheist should learn from him to become better debators. And yeah even people like Hitchins and prominant Atheists think he was the best before you go and claim more garbage out of defense.

It sounds to me like you're the one who has gotten a bit warm under the collar, judging by the attitude and content of your post. Not worth it, bro. Let it go. This is for enjoyment, and hopefully we learn something in the process.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Oh well. I like the way society is going. Less religion is a good thing.

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: luthier

Hey I read the billboard too you don't need to parrot it. By the way I am an agnostic Diest so just keep spouting your cynical anger. If you understood debate you may know why it doesn't work.

First. Let me assure you I am not angry in the least. If I didn't enjoy this, I would stop doing it.
Cynical? Sure, to a degree. Especially when it concerns religion. I spent my decades as a Christian.
I don't use tactics. I post my point of view, and expect others to do the same.

Thats the largest way William Lane Craig won his debates. Atheists got so mad he just tears up their logic even though he isn't necessarily proving his own point. Atheist should learn from him to become better debators. And yeah even people like Hitchins and prominant Atheists think he was the best before you go and claim more garbage out of defense.

It sounds to me like you're the one who has gotten a bit warm under the collar, judging by the attitude and content of your post. Not worth it, bro. Let it go. This is for enjoyment, and hopefully we learn something in the process.

Don't know how it's percieved as anger but OK you are the one perceiving so I guess so.

My point is why attack religion? It's enough to point out falacy.

There are lots of progressive Christians. Unitarians Anglicans etc. No need to box them all together.

Point is mankind is sometimes very immoral despite their beliefs. They are also moral despite their beliefs. The op is wrong in its assumption. It's really society and its multi facetted dynamics that are the problem. As much as technology is good it also is destructive when abused. I have great atheist friends I have great Christian friends. I just hate all the he said she said of Atheists and Christians argueing without substance ignoring logic and points. Not all Atheists and Christians do this. But many vocal ones do.

I argued from the very beginning against the op. That doesn't mean I believe the opposite is true though. It's not all black and white.