Failure to Retain God in our Knowledge has led to to Societal Degrade

Something I've noticed....

It's those claiming the Morality/God connection that have been the first to insult and denigrate those with differing ideas.

Typical....

now speak boy....

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: woodwardjnr

How do you think remote tribes have existed for so long, without the influence of Christianity.

I think you are making a false implication.

The tribal life comes with rules and customs.

That is the heart of the debate over the decaying of such.

Many hold to a certain set of customs and morality while others claim they never existed or were needed.

Anthropologically there can not be a lack of rules or customs. Sometimes they are just to close to see.

originally posted by: luthier

The books usually aren't filled with those things. It's the churches and power structures that misled the people.

You either did not read 'holy' books, or you read it without understanding what you are reading. I just posted little paragraph above about slavery. There are plenty other examples in all of them (talking about Abrahamic religions here, as they are almost c/p from one to another, as well little of mythology from Mesopotamia).

Actually, tell you the truth, today religions are not really following what they used to call 'gods will or god's word' - so you don't see people selling their daughters into slavery, or not following instruction to kill neighbor if they see him working on Sunday.

So, religion is learning real meaning of morale, but it seems to me that there should be 'another' rewriting or religious books... it seems that those written ages ago are rather barbaric and not really moral, as some think they are.

a reply to: deadeyedick

Ok lets try again, you said anyone could buy a dead baby, no proof at all either, so prove me wrong, go buy one and ill send you a big bag of cash, go ahead i dare ya.

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: luthier

The books usually aren't filled with those things. It's the churches and power structures that misled the people.

You either did not read 'holy' books, or you read it without understanding what you are reading. I just posted little paragraph above about slavery. There are plenty other examples in all of them (talking about Abrahamic religions here, as they are almost c/p from one to another, as well little of mythology from Mesopotamia).

Actually, tell you the truth, today religions are not really following what they used to call 'gods will or god's word' - so you don't see people selling their daughters into slavery, or not following instruction to kill neighbor if they see him working on Sunday.

So, religion is learning real meaning of morale, but it seems to me that there should be 'another' rewriting or religious books... it seems that those written ages ago are rather barbaric and not really moral, as some think they are.

Well which version of the bible? What interpretation? Which sermon? It's not that simple.

a reply to: SuperFrog

All of your issues existed in atheist states like USSR. The existence of morality does not mean that bad things wont happen. You claim morality existed but you have no constant to base that on. Religion believes in a divine constant that dictates morality. What you are calling morality is nothing more than materialist self interest. You dont kill because you fear the material repercussions not because it is "wrong". If it is "wrong" then what are you basing that on?

a reply to: olaru12

Good dog

Thank gol you responded, I thought I had hurt your feelings. Good to know we can have a sense of humor and a conversation.

I wish people would be moral without religion, but I think we've become a society obsessed with shortcuts and a "Me, Me, Me" mentality. It would be interesting to see an alternate earth where religion never became a thing and how they developed. Unfortunately thats a fantasy and we live in a world where everyone wants to just do what feels good to them.

originally posted by: Bennyzilla
a reply to: olaru12

Good dog

Thank gol you responded, I thought I had hurt your feelings. Good to know we can have a sense of humor and a conversation.

I wish people would be moral without religion, but I think we've become a society obsessed with shortcuts and a "Me, Me, Me" mentality. It would be interesting to see an alternate earth where religion never became a thing and how they developed. Unfortunately thats a fantasy and we live in a world where everyone wants to just do what feels good to them.

Why not just use philosophy in schools and draw from all the traditions? Plenty of ethics in there. Let people use critical thinking before Google and YouTube take it from us?

a reply to: luthier

Which philosophy? There are many and most are at odds with each other. Plenty of non religious philosophies have done harm. If anything all we would be doing is providing people with a type of tyranny by choice thus leading to further moral relativism.

originally posted by: luthier
Well which version of the bible? What interpretation? Which sermon? It's not that simple.

Sure, you pick: biblehub.com...

Tell me, what Bible you follow.

BTW, Qur'an is no different, it has clear instructions for slaves, how to kill unbelievers etc. All of this is mentioned on this board many times... and really does not take expert to find, but it does help if you read Bible and Qur'an as literature, rather then something 'holy'. Torah is even worst, and more barbaric and immoral by today standards.

It is not my fault that those thinking they are religious are not following their 'holy' books, but I'm thankful that people have actually figured out that humans who wrote those books might have not know everything not right from wrong.


@ NihilistSanta - What USSR has to do with moral and morality?? What issues existed in USSR? People sold kids into slave?! Really? Care to provide some evidence??

Suggest you watch some shows about tribes in amazon, that not only have some basic rules, but also fight for survival, yet no religion and just recently have connection with rest of humanity. Remote location is only reason they did not have faith of Aztecs or Mayans... remind me what happened to them?!


Title is wrong - society degraded with introduction of religion and selling of thin air and promises in afterlife...

That is an interesting point... on a base level, Not killing someone because you're afraid of being killed could be seen as self-interest. If you harm someone there is the fear that if you harm them they, or someone close to them, would harm you in return. Not much different than "I'm not going to harm this person, because then GOD might punish me for it." I guess it comes down to your thought processes when it comes to morality, and being self-aware enough to analyze your thought processes. If you're "afraid" or "nervous" of harming someone, there's a good chance you're only afraid of the repercussions, but if you're saddened or revolted by the concept of harming someone then it's probably altruistic in origin.

Of course I have no proof of any of this, just a interesting mental exercise.

a reply to: SuperFrog

Maybe you should rewatch those shows if you think they don't have an animist system of religion in place.

The USSR had no religion. Yet slavery, political witch hunts and much more existed there as well.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: luthier

Which philosophy? There are many and most are at odds with each other. Plenty of non religious philosophies have done harm. If anything all we would be doing is providing people with a type of tyranny by choice thus leading to further moral relativism.

As many as possible. Hence critical thinking. People decide what is true for themselves.

I like Kant, Roseau, Hume, Spinoza, and Locke but they are sometimes at odds.

Speaking of the USSR it is interesting that after 70+ years of imposed atheism people held on to their religious beliefs and the Church is flourishing there. If the atheist dogma they were fed was fulfilling they would not have returned to religion. The Russian people have a reputation for being quite brutal and I suspect that's what happens when you dehumanize everyone according to materialist doctrine.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Failure to Retain God in our Knowledge has led to to Societal Degrade

You are so right OP. Let's go back to the days when you could buy a wife for a paltry 200 Philistine foreskins. Yeah, those were the good old days. Maybe go back to stoning people outside the city too. That would be great, wouldn't it? Maybe a few slaves while we're at it. I think the bible has a pretty good tutorial on owning them. Oh, and those pesky gays. I say killem all and let God sort them out.

No doubt about it. Being a secular nation has been our downfall. Autonomy. Ha! Who needs it, eh?

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: luthier
Well which version of the bible? What interpretation? Which sermon? It's not that simple.

Sure, you pick: biblehub.com...

Tell me, what Bible you follow.

BTW, Qur'an is no different, it has clear instructions for slaves, how to kill unbelievers etc. All of this is mentioned on this board many times... and really does not take expert to find, but it does help if you read Bible and Qur'an as literature, rather then something 'holy'. Torah is even worst, and more barbaric and immoral by today standards.

It is not my fault that those thinking they are religious are not following their 'holy' books, but I'm thankful that people have actually figured out that humans who wrote those books might have not know everything not right from wrong.


@ NihilistSanta - What USSR has to do with moral and morality?? What issues existed in USSR? People sold kids into slave?! Really? Care to provide some evidence??

Suggest you watch some shows about tribes in amazon, that not only have some basic rules, but also fight for survival, yet no religion and just recently have connection with rest of humanity. Remote location is only reason they did not have faith of Aztecs or Mayans... remind me what happened to them?!


Title is wrong - society degraded with introduction of religion and selling of thin air and promises in afterlife...

Personally? None of them. I just don't care to judge people for what they believe if they leave me alone. I also know plenty of exceptionally moral and generous religious people.

I don't believe in the bibles bit that doesn't mean what you are saying is true. Or that there are not really good moral lessons inside.

a reply to: NihilistSanta

It seems to be the common thread in this isn't belief or lack of belief, but deciding that another group of people is at fault for all the ills a society is experiencing. History if full of groups of people that think "I can't be happy until THAT group, who's mere existence bothers me, no longer exist." Unfortunately I think that is a byproduct of our tribal origins. We may one day overcome it, but until people no longer think in terms of "us vs them" it's likely to continue in some for or another.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: SuperFrog

Maybe you should rewatch those shows if you think they don't have an animist system of religion in place.

The USSR had no religion. Yet slavery, political witch hunts and much more existed there as well.

It seems to me that not only you don't know about religion, but history might be not your strong side either.

If you knew thing or two about USSR, you would know that treatment of religion there was response for Church siding against socialists just before October revolution in 1917. Destruction and persecution followed and it lasted until WWII, when Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church to intensify patriotic support.

What that has to do with moral, this topic and what is your point??

Is this another Hitler and Stalin are atheists, and that is how bad atheism is?!

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: ChesterJohn

Failure to Retain God in our Knowledge has led to to Societal Degrade

You are so right OP. Let's go back to the days when you could buy a wife for a paltry 200 Philistine foreskins. Yeah, those were the good old days. Maybe go back to stoning people outside the city too. That would be great, wouldn't it? Maybe a few slaves while we're at it. I think the bible has a pretty good tutorial on owning them. Oh, and those pesky gays. I say killem all and let God sort them out.

No doubt about it. Being a secular nation has been our downfall. Autonomy. Ha! Who needs it, eh?

Yes being secular has been great. But how about the athesit communist nations? Lots of apples and oranges debating going on.

Men and women do horrible things. Everywhere in every time in every belief system. That is the only fact here.

a reply to: SuperFrog

Ok maybe there is a language barrier issue here. You are talking about how much better the world would be without religion. I give you a real world example of an entire empire that was officially atheist (yes the orthodox church was permitted limited influence but only to be used politically. If they chastised the state in any way they would have been sent off to a work camp)

You mention isolated tribes but for some reason you think they are atheist because they were not influenced by the Aztecs? Do you know what animism is?