NLBS 3.02 - "Organic Food" Is Mostly, No, Completely BS

a reply to: masqua

Bud Nip
and depending on what you're eating such as grapes maybe the traces of up to 30 fungicides insecticides and other chemicals.
my general question always was if it will kill a bug and it will kill a fungus why doesn't it kill us?

I talked to farmers who were around in the 1950s when the first chemical fertilizers were used. They noticed all the birds died in their fields. But they had a very beautiful crop that year. So with 1950 logic that seemed OK and they continue to do it

a reply to: proob4

So flooding a natural plant with pesticides, toxins and viruses is just as good as something grown natural?

You know that Cyanide is "natural" right? And yes, this same type of classification is used by companies so they can use toxic chemicals, in "organic"

originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: masqua
my general question always was if it will kill a bug and it will kill a fungus why doesn't it kill us?

Mostly because we are not a bug or a fungus.

By that logic, since salt kills slugs, we can just build our prisons out of salt rings. Right?

If Tetracycline kills germs, why doesn't it kill us?

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

it can all kill us but the preferred method is slow kill

we humans and mommy nature can live just fine without poison



eartheasy.com...

www.motherearthnews.com... sticides-zmaz94fmzraw.aspx

No need for them chems

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

A buz size dose will kill a bug. A man sized dose.....
Eat enough bug sized doses and it will accumulate in the body

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: theNLBS

Great episode Joe! The nonsense is strong with organic food growing as a subject. It starts with the name. The terminology is flawed from the get go....

Ok, lets call it Food grown without using poisons.

The other problem I have with the organic industry is this:
If it is better to do it that way, then no one should be allowed to do otherwise. It must, therefore, not be better at all, since there are no efforts being made on behalf of bigger businesses to exclusively produce organic foods. Sainsbury's, TESCO, Walmart (or ASDA if you happen to be on the sensible side of the pond

), Waitrose, and Aldi and Lidl, not to mention Morrisons.... None of these big food businesses are producing organic foods exclusively, and neither are the big brand food producers whose wares those retailers are carrying.

Your logic on this is awful!!!
Organically grown food requires more labour, more labour reduces profits, thats why they dont exclusively stock organic produce, also there's just not enough of it to fill the shelves in the super markets.

I am all for quality food, but we have to be realistic about things. A good slab of steak tastes good bloody, as long as it is a good slab of steak. It does not matter one whit, taste and nutrition wise, whether the animal was put through an SAS assault course and a diet of steamed kelp before being slaughtered, or whether it was forced to join a hippy drum circle and to sing protest songs outside potential fracking sites. Its a dead cow, and it tastes great and fills your belly.

Like many in this thread you clearly have never had real organic meat.
Lets get something clear from the start! Organic foods from supermarkets are awful!!! They do NOT represent real organic food. Those of us who care about what we eat know full well that supermarkets deliberately stock poor quality organics, thats right! Its done on purpose! Because they know that at some point every consumer will wonder what organic is all about, and they'll pick up something to try, and then like many in this thread they will declare "It doesn't taste any better".

Ever wonder why Prince Charles has MASSIVE ORGANIC FARMS!!!
Ever wondered why the royals and all their rich pals only eat organic? grown on Charlie's farms!!!

Are you aware that 70% of the British public are pissing out weedkiller? The 30% that aren't are the organic feeders!

A friend of mine rears organic pigs and he just cant produce enough to keep up with demand. Why? because even those who ordinarily don't bother with organic food have realised how much tastier they are, and they also notice that the bacon doesn't ooze that white sludge while its cooking.

When you buy organic food from a real organic producer, only a liar would say there's no difference!

originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

A buz size dose will kill a bug. A man sized dose.....
Eat enough bug sized doses and it will accumulate in the body

Possibly. And it could be part of the problem with things like cancer rates, autoimmune illnesses, etc, etc. But the science isn't there. Mostly for a lack of trying, I'd guess.

That is most of my participation in this thread: i am mesmerized at people who have emotional reactions creating a wild swing in the opposite direction

To hear folks on the internet, no one eats any produce from Wal mart, and McDonalds is certain to go bankrupt in 2016 from the utter lack of customers.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

it can all kill us but the preferred method is slow kill

we humans and mommy nature can live just fine without poison



eartheasy.com...

www.motherearthnews.com... sticides-zmaz94fmzraw.aspx

No need for them chems

I would be interested i seeing yield predictions in organic farming before I am ready to throw away the planets food production. 8bil people is an aweful lot of mouths to feed. And famine is a awfully violent death throe for civilization.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
Requirements fulfilled, and no pretentious nonsense in sight!

You ever have free range chicken, tastes so much better and better for you and the chicken is so much happier...I hope when the aliens come they let me free range up to the point they eat me...lol

Actually the one area I tend to lean in the direction of "better" is beef. I typically buy a 1/4 cow that is raised on grass with about 1 month of grain with non of the chemicals they pump in them. Off my friends I get that meat at 1/2 price store bought and it has more taste.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

I would be interested i seeing yield predictions in organic farming before I am ready to throw away the planets food production. 8bil people is an aweful lot of mouths to feed. And famine is a awfully violent death throe for civilization.

with life expectancy still going up and up...i.e. 60 today is yesterday's 40 I do not think GMO is really having a huge negative effect on us. Now a super size Mc D may be the worst thing besides cola to put into your body, but whole foods... Give me a break, but then how do they justify the exorbitant costs if GMO wasn't evil?

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

Yep, I've grown tomatoes too. The only difference is freshness and the attention given to them.

I live in Alaska so ALL tomatoes that come here are shipped by barge or trucked. All of them are in refrigerated trucks or containers. None of them have any flavor at all.

There are a few green houses that grow modest quantities of "hot house tomatoes" and sell them at the local grocery stores for a premium. They are a huge step up, and they are still not "organic". Then there are the tomatoes I've grown myself. These are the freshest, as I can consume them within hours of picking them. There isn't any way to compare them to store bought produce in any way.

Also, commercially grown tomatoes are not the same phenotype or strain as the ones you grow yourself at home. The commercial tomatoes are specially bread for yield, speed of growth and appearance, not taste. So when you grow your own they are naturally going to taste better.

It's an unfair comparison by so many metrics. The fact remains that if you chemically analyze organic vs. non-organic they are virtually identical. This entire argument is like trying to claim the brand name post-it-notes are better than the Highland generic brand.

Both sticky notes are made by the 3M parent company. Both sticky notes are made in the same factory, from the same materials. The only difference is that the "Post-It" brand notes are a little bit brighter yellow. They also cost about twice as much.

So if nothing else, you can save yourself some money buying your office sticky notes. Just buy the Highland brand, they're the same as the Post-It notes but cheaper.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

it can all kill us but the preferred method is slow kill

we humans and mommy nature can live just fine without poison



eartheasy.com...

www.motherearthnews.com... sticides-zmaz94fmzraw.aspx

No need for them chems

I would be interested i seeing yield predictions in organic farming before I am ready to throw away the planets food production. 8bil people is an aweful lot of mouths to feed. And famine is a awfully violent death throe for civilization.

Sounds like industrial fear mongering

I think an interesting thread would be about how god created ways to thin our herd and along comes science to fight him.

a reply to: deadeyedick

Our technology has taken us out of the evolutionary equation for some time. We've artificially tweaked our species to prevent us from having mass plagues and die-offs. Our medical technology is keeping people alive that would have died before they could have kids.

People with all kinds of allergies and disorders are now able to live long enough to pass their genes on to others. This isn't a bad thing though -- it's allowing for previously unseen variations that would have never been possible in our species. We are more diverse than ever before, which also can help us survive unknown hazards.

We're now forging ahead into virgin territory. Previously nature guided our species, now we're guiding ourselves. Kind of scary...!

a reply to: MystikMushroom

This isn't a bad thing though

yes it is if you are a plant of animal

Oh good, now I know that McDonald's milkshakes are healthy for me.

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord

originally posted by: proob4
I call "organic" what you grow for yourself, right. Tell me it's not better than anything you can get at a store or market? In respect to you, seriously?

There's a great many people that don't have the means for a meaningful vegetable garden -- yours truly included.

After spending time with real, honest, hard-working farmers (I talked to a couple more), it's not about going full-organic, it's about responsible farming, which sometimes includes pesticides, fungicides, and fertilizers -- but not overuse of those items.

Have you considered container gardening, or do you lack the space for that too? I run a 2-box square foot garden system and container garden tomatoes and blueberry bushes (so I can move them around).

a reply to: theNLBS


Let me introduce myself to the human population.


I am beyond intelligent. What I say on anything is factual, scientific to some degree and decided by me as being the absolute true answer.


Organic food is a lie.

When people hear "organic" they assume the food is natural, but at the same time, they think anything that isn't labelled "organic" is not natural.

Here is some food for thought:


Even the produce that isn't labelled as "organic" IS STILL ORGANIC.


It wasn't made using magic or synthetic materials by robots. It was all grown just like organic produce.


The only difference between "organic" and non-organic isn't "natural" versus "synthetic", it's all exactly the god damn same, it's just what kind of "pesticides" are used to treat the produce
whilst it is being grown.


Organic labelled produce is identical to the non-organic labelled produce, BUT the stuff they spray onto the crops is considered "natural", but to all those humans out there that think "organic" food is better or safer for you because they don't have toxins or pesticides, to you people I say "Your an idiot!".

Organic food does get treated with pesticides, it does have toxins in it, in fact, the "natural" pesticides are far more dangerous and less-safe for human consumption than "synthetic" pesticides.

There once was a time, when a certain synthetic pesticide was found to be cancer causing. This is when farmers (some) started switching to "natural" pesticides, and the whole "organic" phase of marketing came into play.

That was about 40 years ago.

Since then, the synthetic pesticides being used are actually some of the safest and most effective ever devised by man.

Do you remember when the world was only using "organic" farming methods?

Probably not, because if you did, you wouldn't touch the sh*t with a 50-foot pole.


Organic farming and the "organic" pesticides used then, and even still used now, because they can't use the newer safer synthetic ones to still be labelled "organic" and make their crazy amounts of profits from hippies and idiots alike, was responsible for the deaths of millions of people world wide.

Many studies & research has been conducted by real scientists and health organizations across the planet to see if there is any "quality" or "nutrient" differences between "organic & non-organic" produce.

The answer all these places came up with?

NO, there is no difference between the produce in nutrient content or quality.

In fact, the organic stuff has a higher level of "natural toxins" which are still dangerous to humans in them.

Why is organic so expensive then, isn't it because some how not using synthetic pesticides makes it more expensive, because it's better for you or "higher quality"?

NO.

The only reason organic food costs you, the consumer more money is due to this fact:

Using organic pesticides are so ineffective that the farmers will actually lose a considerable amount of the produce they are trying to grow to insects and diseases, so they end up with LESS of the produce in the end.

That's the only reason it's so expensive, it has nothing to do with quality or nutrient content.

If anyone tries to argue with me, then you should automatically be thrown off a cliff.

The only difference "organic" labelled food makes, is in your own mind as a placebo effect, and in the food marketers pockets... Your making them rich, and they use some of that money to "pay off" certain people into lying about organic food and coming up with pseudo-science to try and convince the idiot population that organic is better for you.

It's not, in anyway at all, it is in fact more likely to go off (spoil) faster and to contain things like salmonella, E.coli and a high dose of "natural" toxins.

If you don't understand anything I have said, or wish to argue with me, then I will point you to a show called "bullsh*t" and their episode "organic food". If you still wish to argue with me after learning more about organic food and watching that particular episode of the show I just mentioned, then you seriously need to die off, and take your entire family line with you. Grow some brains cells, use some science, not the words of marketing companies which have been shoved down your throats.

To read more about some completely random things I go on about and my views on stuff, visit my blog, I wont give you the link, I'm sure you can search for "The Angry Intellect" in google and find it somewhere... Ignore the YouTube page, it's just linked to my blog profile.

a reply to: theNLBS

Why would anyone think that?, unless what they mean is they don't believe organic is really that 'organic', ie they don't believe it is grown more naturally, in more natural environments.

Some organic standards are a bit iffy. Stories about the standards being lowered so that not very natural methods can be included in some certifications. I've been into this since I heard of it, in 1997. Prior to that I was very much into health food and natural healing methods, but had never heard of organic though I did wonder - how did people grow crops before the recent manufactured fertilisers were used? I've seen, in the UK, changes over the years. For example, in the 90s and early 00s, organic certifications would not have been given to pesticides at all, excepting some very specific types and then they only were to be used as an absolute last resort.
Now though, I've seen 'organic' pesticides in stores, with certs on the packaging, and can speak from experience that it includes products that literally burn through your skin. Like using paint stripper. So that should not be labelled organic at all, though it could well be made out of natural products.

Personally I don't think organic goes far enough towards the kind of growing methods we really need. but it's a lot better than routine pesticide / biocide use, and it's better than using artificial fertilisers. And done correctly it is supposed to be much better for wildlife, and that then should have a good knock on effect in helping the crops stay healthy (healthy ecosystem should mean less problems with crops, even in adverse weather).

In my direct growing experience, the more naturally you grow, the easier it gets, and the better the food tastes. I didn't even weed hardly*, and I only dug to plant in existing plants. I noticed things like - my crops would be far more vigorous when they grew beside the wild areas of the space I had to grow in. I'd buy in garden centre plants that'd sometimes have aphids all over them - the ladybirds would sort that out within a couple of days. The animal wildlife never ate my crops, they only ate some of my green manures (green manures are plants grown for soil coverage and to feed nutrients into the soil, do things like soak up excess water).

*I didn't weed at all. To be wholly accurate, in most cases I started out with a grow area pre-prepared, so someones else had dug the place up beforehand (not how I'd prepare ground myself), or more usually with planters and makeshift planters. Wild spaces, full of 'weeds', have the best soil. It smells amazing and is always extremely fertile - because it isn't tampered with, and if fed by successive generations of naturally dying back plants in the winter.

Organic proper is a lot about the soil. Don't forget what happened with the dust bowls! It doesn't take much to reduce a healthy soil to dust.

a reply to: TheAngryIntellect

"That's the only reason it's so expensive, it has nothing to do with quality or nutrient content."

That isn't why, it costs more because the economy is a big load of fake. If you take the true overall cost into account, and presuming the organic growing has been done correctly, it costs way less overall to grow naturally.

It's a bit like with forest gardening methods - initially you have a lot more work. But do it right, and you haven't a lot of work besides some upkeep and harvesting, once the garden system is established.
Organic isn't as self-sufficient as forest gardening, but it is designed to become very self sufficient, so that external seeds and nutrients and soil don't have to be bought in.

There are subsidies for organic sometimes too. Most of the subsidies, over this way anyway, go to the same types of crop growing they've been going to for years. The shop cost of produce doesn't charge for the subsidies or the cost of the chemical manufacture. It doesn't pay for the systems of seed raising. It doesn't take the holistic costs into account - in general the economic sums don't take the true costs of producing anything at all into account. I won't go off on one about the cost to health and the effect of environmental damage is to overall intelligence, therefore future gene fitness and - all those loads of other related topics..but, point there being, the true economic costs of the usual production of anything at all, do not reflect in the prices paid.

It's kind of like how there can be stores like 'pound shops'. The costs are low because the labour is slave, because some of them are subsidised businesses, because some are those businesses that pay no taxes, because there's loads of surplus getting stockpiled, because they have to maintain the illusion of a healthy economy so they invent as many not very real jobs as possible just to make the unemployment figures look better, to keep the shares trading and the stocks shifting.

So see in the shops you get a vegetable selling for about 30p here (non-organic), what does the farmer get per unit? Nowhere near the 30p. How big a field do they need to grow that many, over a few months of seasons, to actually make even a few grand profit a year - bigger fields than most of them have. So if they weren't subsidised, they'd not even break even at those store prices.

I appreciate your attitude, as I too would just chuck anyone off a cliff that doesn't agree with me. But really you should go with the organic, it is better when it's done right.

It's almost like ATS is now going out of it's way to accept and promote ignorance. I can only guess the motivation behind this disinfo is money? Are we going to start seeing chemical ads and the such on here now? A Kraft mac and cheese popup on every page visit? Pretty disgraceful.