Question for Muslims about women?

To be fair, the entire OP was a bit loaded in its phrasing, showing a sort of embedded preconceived bias that it is very difficult to take out. For example (and in no sense trying to pick specifically on spirit_horse):

originally posted by: spirit_horse
But, muslims mutilate women sexually, cover them up so they won't be seen etc.

An implication that muslims aren't women?
That the covering up is done generally by someone else, and forced on women (most muslim women I know who wear a hijab do it through their own choice)?
Heck, much of the post was a blanket generalisation: Even as demonstrated here, Islam and Muslims aren't a monolithic group with unified opinions about circumcision or covering up.

FGM aside, /most Muslim countries do not have equal rights for women. In fact they have it very very hard.

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
FGM aside, /most Muslim countries do not have equal rights for women. In fact they have it very very hard.

Not entirely true. The 3 most populous Muslim countries have even had female Heads of State within the last 100 years. That's Indonesia, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. Those 3 countries alone have between 30%-33% of all Muslims in the world. And the country with the 2nd largest amount of Muslims (India) has also elected female Heads of State.

The problem isn't whether Muslim countries have or don't have equal rights for women; the problem is that most countries in general don't have fully equal rights for women. Even the US is still working on equal rights for women, particularly equal pay, equal political representation, and ending sexist or patronizing policies.

Remember, most of the well known successes of the women's rights movement are recent successes. It took the 19th Amendment in 1920 to finally guarantee women the right to vote here. And it was something like the 1970s before most modernized Western countries started allowing women to serve active duty in most military branches. There are women's rights movements all over the world & they're all gaining ground. But there's obviously more work to be done.

a reply to: spirit_horse

By doing that, you are saying in effect that Allah did not know how to create a woman and thus you have to fix what he did wrong.

They have their women cover to protect their modesty. The women agree with this more or less. Some less than more, but very little can be done about that immediately. Culture, tradition and religion work together to create what's considered acceptable and normal. All the rest of it is just variations on a theme of women as property and evil temptresses that make it more difficult for men to walk the straight and narrow...

Everything by degree...but the theme varies very little from place to place

There is a group of women that works down the hall from me in another office in the building where I work. They are Christians - and very conservative. It's been suggested to me by one of them that maybe I should consider buttoning the top button of my blouse. Mind you - there's nothing much showing - but - they are buttoned up to their chins pretty much, and for them this seems reasonable

They have made all kinds of suggestions, and remarks - not only to me or for me, but about people here and there - celebrities, politicians...

The Duggers are a good place to start if you want to bring this conversation home

Burkas come in many forms - freedoms that women in the west take for granted now have come about very recently - but it feels like we are superior because of those recent changes - and so we enjoy pointing our fingers and laughing

Meanwhile - medicine, politics, economies and religion still treat women different from men here in the enlightened west

Time, education - and a little cultural elbow grease - will change everything. For them and for us

a reply to: enlightenedservant

The problem isn't whether Muslim countries have or don't have equal rights for women; the problem is that most countries in general don't have fully equal rights for women. Even the US is still working on equal rights for women, particularly equal pay, equal political representation, and ending sexist or patronizing policies.

Remember, most of the well known successes of the women's rights movement are recent successes. It took the 19th Amendment in 1920 to finally guarantee women the right to vote here. And it was something like the 1970s before most modernized Western countries started allowing women to serve active duty in most military branches. There are women's rights movements all over the world & they're all gaining ground. But there's obviously more work to be done.

I agree with this almost completely. Time will change everything. It's a philosophical discussion that needs to be had about whether or not those changes are necessary

So - never mind about all that - women will do this for themselves - eventually. With or without anyone's permission

While trying to be as respectful and culturally considerate as possible - this is the long way around to saying - Zazz isn't wrong

They are no different from us - bottom line

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

This is one of the most brilliant posts I have ever read on ATS.

(Where the hell've you been? )

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

A star just for being nice to me

:-)

Been gathering wool and grabbing back some sanity...but so nice to be back