More than 2,500 benefit claimants die after being found fit for work in just two years

Ok not sticking up for the government here, but just because people died after they were found fit for work does not mean that the work itself killed them. Majority I would say are coincidence.

How many people die a day (about 1400 a day out of 64Mil). Take that into account, that is a VERY small number considering the time frame. These figures are very one sided and people are twisting them.

I do agree though if they are fit for work they should work. Others shouldnt carry them through life.

a reply to: capragenus

And if they were not fit for work, but were forced into it anyway? If they were not fit for work, but found to be so by a contracting company which has been employed specifically to fill quotas, and not to actually discover the truth as to the needs of those claiming incapacity benefit?

Why would you make a statement such as the one you made, without explaining that provision must be made for those who cannot and should not work, such is the state of their health?

a reply to: TrueBrit

By all means if they cannot or are not fit for work then ok, I agree, but when they are found fit for work they should.

Im just stating that these figures should NOT be manipulated to state that there is wrongdoing here. What evidence do we have to state they are simply filing quotas. Maybe people had underlying conditions that didn't stop them from working and doesnt mean they cannot.

a reply to: capragenus

What evidence do we have?

There have been cases of people who cannot read and write, being sanctioned for failing to single handedly create and document a CV, and hand it over to an employer. There have been cases where individuals on benefits have been told to apply for and complete two week, classroom style training courses, and have then been sanctioned for failing to seek work during the time that training was taking place.

Further to that, and on the subject of purely disabled persons, I know what these contractors are like personally, because a good friend of our family, who is bent double at the waist with back trouble, and has malfunctioning lower limbs causing her to "walk" with two crutches, has been victimised by these idiots before. They wrote her up as being fit for work, despite the fact that she takes an hour to get up her own stairs to her own bedroom and bathroom, the fact that it takes her ten minutes to get from her front room, to her kitchen, which are a maximum of twelve feet from one another, and despite the fact that if she is stood upon her feet, the only thing she can see properly are the ground immediately in front of her, because of her being bent over so badly. She is in constant, debilitating pain, has wrappings around her legs because of how much water is built up in them...

She could not do a days COMMUTE without going through unbearable agony, let alone a days work! It would literally kill her to go out and try to get a job. Hell, she would probably die from pain induced shock, just trying to get to the job center, and yet the herbert they sent out from this contractor company to assess her, paid no attention to that, and wrote her off. Luckily, she has a background in law, and wrote to the authority with the paper equivalent of an intercontinental ballistic missile, and they promptly apologised and put things right.

But the vast majority of people claiming incapacity benefit are not in a position to do even that much for themselves, having either learning difficulties, or other mental health problems which lead them to either accept, or fail to understand the instructions they are given in order that they remain secure in their situations. I am sorry, but the evidence is not at all lacking. What seems to be lacking is people who are incapable of such callousness as to believe that sending contractors after the disabled with instructions and quotas to clear as many people as possible from the books of the DWP, is appropriate!

Again, until 30 billion of tax fraud by the richest has been stopped and the perpetrators punished severely, I want to see not a SINGLE benefit claimant investigated for the trifling sums they are getting away with, because it seems the government are incapable of investigating only the guilty, and prefer to make as much trouble for some of the hardest done by in our society along the way. It will not wash. These people need defending from the government as much as they need its help, and any compassionate person would realise that.

I always feel sorry for the poor folks with mental illnesses who must go into panic mode every time these benefit stories are in the media. It must be awful for some who have little family support. I can't imagine it. Luckily I live with my parents who look after all these things for me. Not everyone is so lucky. We really should expect a little more compassion from those in power, but I wouldn't expect it from this lot. They are beyond out of touch

originally posted by: capragenus
a reply to: TrueBrit

By all means if they cannot or are not fit for work then ok, I agree, but when they are found fit for work they should.

Im just stating that these figures should NOT be manipulated to state that there is wrongdoing here. What evidence do we have to state they are simply filing quotas. Maybe people had underlying conditions that didn't stop them from working and doesnt mean they cannot.

There are multiple secretly recorded videos of both DWP and ATOS staff talking about sanctioning and finding people fit for work due to targets set by the government. plenty of doctors and nurses, ex ATOS employees, now coming out and blowing the lid off the whole scam.. Google them..Appalling stuff.

This is a systematic attack on the whole welfare system. It's not about catching out the scroungers or fiddlers. Those numbers are minuscule anyway compared to the figures on tax avoidance in this country.

It's simply an way of getting rid of welfare completely. They are pulling the same stunt with the NHS...Bleed it dry financially and the only option you have for better treatment is to go private.

The Tories opposed the welfare system back in the 40's. Now they are destroying it with the help of the people turning a blind eye or agreeing with them by listening the lies and propaganda...Good luck, because when the time comes either you or a member of your family needs help it simply wont be there...

Food Banks?....pffft, it's only the start.


EDIT. I mention ATOS. ATOS no longer carry out the tests, They bought out the remainder of their contract and a company called Maximus..(google them for a laugh) now carry out the tes...eh, Miracles.

This is just the start of it,
Government are well aware that many people will not work and sanctions will make no difference to them. They are not the people being targeted in this attack. The disabled, ill and carers are easy targets. Changes to legal aid now means that you have to pay your own way in court no matter the reason, if you win you can be awarded money but that can be years down the line.
As an aside this same government voted not to protect victims and witnesses of child abuse earlier in the year.
Human rights is about to be changed to the British bill of rights which will again make it harder to have rights for workers and to get health care.
The DWP knew that many of the people they sanction (over half of all sanctions are overturned on appeal) would talk about self harm and suicide so they were given "training" a six point chart to tick off. This is the same department that invented #fakeDWPstories its a constant stream of lies and u-turns and until I had spoken to an MP I honestly thought they would of been embarrassed but they arent the auto response is just to blame someone else.
There is a real drive against the disabled in the UK and there seems to be no consequence. Current MP in charge of disability rights for DWP is a man called Justin Tomlinson he states that his reason for going into politics and his role model is a man called Nick Martin who was his boss and mayor of Swindon. Nick Martin was removed from office for saying that disabled people should be sterilized, there was also a campaign by conservative local council to drive young people with autism out of a housing estate that many of the local council members live. I appreciate that this is on a smaller scale but its a badge for how the rest of the country is being run.
When parliament comes back departments have been told to budget for a further 40% in cuts. We are not allowed to mention that there have been more than £12Bn in benefits (used to be called services) unclaimed every year for the last 5 and we are supposed to be happy about gov putting £42 million into mental health services...Again we are not supposed to mention that £85 million has been taken out over the last 5 years.
People are blaming Ian Duncan Smith for this but he had a team helping him and he has a boss that signs off his ideas. All of them have questions to answer and its not just IDS resignation that is needed the entire DWP needs to be scrapped.
Jeremy Hunt and Mark Reckless co authored a book called direct democracy. In the book they talk about what would be required to collapse the NHS much of the criteria has been put in place by the last budget. Its allot to read but well worth a look.
Apologies if this is a little fractured but I am so angry about this situation and the fact its being allowed to continue of course all supported by the MSM.
Talk about this allot on twitter if you are interested in joining in you can get me on Badgersgetabadname
Keep as much pressure on government as possible however you feel comfortable doing so. Targeting the disabled and the young was seen by gov as an easy target we must let them know this is not acceptable.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

EDIT. I mention ATOS. ATOS no longer carry out the tests, They bought out the remainder of their contract and a company called Maximus..(google them for a laugh) now carry out the tes...eh, Miracles.

You are correct in what you say; however its also important to point out that although Maximus are the new contractors the same ATOS staff, infrastructure and methods are still being used despite the mess they made of it.

ATOS have also just been awarded another 80 mil (10 mil per year) contract to continue to manage the IT infrastructure for the ESA and WCA even though they have demonstrated they are completely incapable of doing this effectively. The tender for this contract was also completely competition free (no one else was allowed to bid for it)

Just one of many examples of how the current government look after their mates in big business at the behest of some of the most vulnerable in our society.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: Cobaltic1978

Thats truly sad. I cant help but think that the people who abuse the system are also to blame. There wouldnt be such an effort to weed out liars if there werent TOO MANY to ignore. I have not met a citizen of the UK that was on the doll for no good reason, but I have seen and heard about them online and through my friends from over seas.

I once saw a TV show from the UK about dead beat dads. Some of those people who came up on stage made me want to punch my TV.

I think there should be a review from time to time to see how people who were on assistance are making out. You cant just throw people into the mix after years in some cases of not working. You need to start them off slow and allow them time to fall into place. If they dont you see why and fix the issue or revert your prior assessment of their current ability to work.

Just my thoughts.

That is how you hit a nail on the head.

The increasing panic over the aging population has governments worried and they are forcing those into work to ease the burden; they want anybody who isn't crippled from the waist down to work and it's not that simple. You can't put a person with a heart condition into a position that requires strenuous activities.

The government wants people to get back into the workforce but they do not want to help them get there. And the NGO's are having a hard time helping getting people into work because the governments gave them the finger. At the end of the day they don't want to spend money to earn money.

a reply to: TrueBrit

I would assume that much like any program be it UK, US wherever. You will have those abusing the system and getting over, and those needing the help but not getting it. The problem is the frauds in any system tend to put everyone under scrutiny. For every story someone has of someone needing the help but not getting it, or jumping through hoops to get. Someone else will have a story of someone who did not need help and was getting it under fradulent means.

Makes it very hard for any system to work right when accounting for this.

a reply to: uncommitted

Since these people were presumably on disability of some sort, the likely hood of them having a death related to their disability is high. That is why they were audited in the first place, because they weren't healthy but were they healthy enough to go back to work? The government decided that.

a reply to: grainofsand

You've just absorbed the propaganda that the 1% reinvest into the economy and that it trickles down to the poorest.
It's a total fallacy and you know it.

originally posted by: michaelmcclen
My sister died at 30 and was declared fit for work the week before she died.

I've crohns and althrough I see myself as disabled the government see me as fit for work also.

I can totally sympathise with you having Crohns, I have ulcerative colitis which is bad enough - however, why does crohns make you unfit for any work? I'm sorry, I know that sounds incredibly harsh but a former colleague was a fellow sufferer (still is, we just work for different companies now) and he works with no issues. Obviously the nature of the disease restricts the kind of work he does, but that doesn't mean he is unfit to do any work and I'm fairly sure he would be massively insulted if it was suggested otherwise.

originally posted by: darkbake
a reply to: uncommitted

Since these people were presumably on disability of some sort, the likely hood of them having a death related to their disability is high. That is why they were audited in the first place, because they weren't healthy but were they healthy enough to go back to work? The government decided that.

That's a total assumption on your part, sorry, but it is. If you can provide that correlation then I'll concede it as a fair point, but over a period of two years people will die because.................. people die. Are all the people who work but die over a two year period dead because they worked? Without further detail they are both just as ridiculous statements to make.

holy meaningless " statistic "

FFS - even by the standards of mirror " journalism " this is utter bollox

to make any sense of this figure we need :

1 - number of people " judged fit for work " - that didnt die

2 - the death rate in the alledgely " healthy " UK population

the fact that this tail avoids these 2 figures like the plague is telling

a reply to: uncommitted

It is not the case that Crohns disease affects everyone who has it to the same degree. One of my friends has it, as well as one of my sisters friends. They both get affected to a different degree, and have different primary triggers and reactions.

Biology is not uniform.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

The official figure, which was hidden within the official figures released today relating to Immigration, stands at 2,650 between December 2011 and February 2014.

That's 2,650 people dying shortly after being found fit for work by an organisation contracted by the Government, to determine people's fitness to return to work. An organisation that was undoubtedly well rewarded for doing so.

...

RIP The innocent victims of Austere measures, you were a price worth paying in the eyes of Iain Duncan Smith and Co.

While I've spent of lot of my time fighting the DWP over Atos assessments (I was a volunteer at a charity that helped people with things like this) so I completely believe Atos to be evil chancers. However, I simply can't accept your figure in the way you have presented it.

How did those people die? Should we be blaming Atos for people getting hit by a bus? Falling off a ladder while adjusting their aerial? Issues relating to previously unknown congenital defects? Absolutely not.

Without that breakdown, the number is simply pointless. There's no way of knowing whether even a single one of those deaths was attributed to an illness that should have been sufficient to find them unfit for work.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see these companies (well, Atos at least, not sure what the new one is like) get a bloody good kicking in the media, but this information is next to useless without more details.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: grainofsand

The reality is that these people are NOT the ones making money for companies.

But they do tend to be the people deciding where the company's money is spent.

If I were the government, I'd be happier to have them create a thousand jobs but only pay 1% of their corporate tax bill, than to have them take their business to another country so we get no jobs and 0% of anything.

Also, your final line doesn't make sense. You can certainly put more in than anyone else and still take more out than anyone else. For example, if we both agreed to put some money in a pot. You put in £10 and I put in £100. You take £30 out and I take £80 out. I've put in more AND taken out more - and even then, I've lost out to the tune of £20 and you've gained to the tune of £20.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: uncommitted

It is not the case that Crohns disease affects everyone who has it to the same degree. One of my friends has it, as well as one of my sisters friends. They both get affected to a different degree, and have different primary triggers and reactions.

Biology is not uniform.

Hi, and you're right, that was my point, having Crohns disease does not mean that by default you are unfit for work - obviously as with any condition for some the symptoms are more acute than others. I'm by no means singling that condition out - this is where things start to get murky about what 'fit for work' means I guess.

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