Stand your ground laws help people with a violent history

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Police all over the world have always had discretion - your supreme court case is not unique.

...then one must ask why we're the only country with the foresight and well placed values to have Stand Your Ground laws.

Weird. Legalizing murder leads violent people to murder more freely. Whoda thunk it?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Police all over the world have always had discretion - your supreme court case is not unique.

...then one must ask why we're the only country with the foresight and well placed values to have Stand Your Ground laws.

One has no idea how that question follows, however one must point out that having such foresight and values are not universally considered as "well placed" - hence the OP.

That plus apparently the Czech self defence law has no duty to retreat so effectively accomplishes the same thing so your statement is, in effect, false.

a reply to: AshOnMyTomatoes

Legally the term is justifiable homicide, but we wouldn't want to let a little thing like semantics get in the way here, would we?

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Police all over the world have always had discretion - your supreme court case is not unique.

...then one must ask why we're the only country with the foresight and well placed values to have Stand Your Ground laws.

One has no idea how that question follows, however one must point out that having such foresight and values are not universally considered as "well placed" - hence the OP.

The universe really doesn't mean squat. Hell, the opinion of the nation is meaningless, as this is a state's rights issue. I'm fairly sure, if the majority of people in a given state that has SYG laws want it changed, there are mechanisms by which to change it. www.miamiherald.com... 65% of Floridians, for example, support the law. Majority rules, and when it doesn't, it likely should.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

lol - sure majority rules - not so sure about "and when it doesn't it should" bit tho!

But the corollary is that people are allowed to try to influence the majority - and doing studies of the effects of changes is a perfectly valid method of doing so - indeed IMO is vastly preferable to many other methods - such as bribery, scaremongering, and baseless assertion of opinion as fact.

So for me what has been shown here is an almost universal unwillingness to face facts by SYG proponents - none of you seem to have read the articles I linked to and made rational arguments against them.

to some extent that is reasonable - after all the articles are long on actual surveys and studies, and no-one expects "random" forum posters to have that depth available to them.

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
So for me what has been shown here is an almost universal unwillingness to face facts by SYG proponents - none of you seem to have read the articles I linked to and made rational arguments against them.

I read them, disagree with their findings, stated that their facts are clearly presented in a manipulated manner, and made a very rational argument against them... you didn't accept it. Fair enough, it's your right and, frankly, since you're not in any position to impact the laws in my community, state, or nation, your refusal to accept those arguments really means very little to me.

Re-read this www.abovetopsecret.com...
Read the last line several times if necessary, because it is one of the more accurate facts presented in this thread.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

lol - you present your own opinion as fact, deride me for presenting well resources studies as opinion and say that I have failed??

Yeah.........right...

A quick look through hthe abstracts and summaries of the articles returned on the first 2 pages of a google search for "effects of stand your ground" finds no positive results - unless you consider an increase in both justifiable and unjustifiable homicide a positive result!

a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

JUSTIFIABLE... (Noun) excusable, defensible, with rational reason.

You know, I honestly don't have any problem with folks that deserve to be shot being shot.

You'll have to redirect me to the stat that indicates indefensible homicide rates have risen... I somehow failed to find any facts in this thread related to that.

originally posted by: AshOnMyTomatoes
Weird. Legalizing murder leads violent people to murder more freely. Whoda thunk it?

You do know that "turn the other cheek" is for verbal insults in reality right? And MURDER is the pre planned action to kill someone. Most people who stand their ground did not plan to kill anyone. Its biblically excused because its in defense of ones self or of another as well.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

JUSTIFIABLE... (Noun) excusable, defensible, with rational reason.

You know, I honestly don't have any problem with folks that deserve to be shot being shot.

You'll have to redirect me to the stat that indicates indefensible homicide rates have risen... I somehow failed to find any facts in this thread related to that.

I don't have a problem with people being shot when they "deserve" to be shot either.

I think we might differ on who and when someone "deserves" to be shot!

Shooting should be (IMO) a last resort - not a first one, which appears to be what SYG laws have made it.

a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

You can have no Gun and still deserve to be shot though.

a reply to: yuppa

I agree.

and you can be a burglar and NOT deserve to be shot IMO.....

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
a reply to: yuppa

I agree.

and you can be a burglar and NOT deserve to be shot IMO.....

I disagree

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
a reply to: yuppa

I agree.

and you can be a burglar and NOT deserve to be shot IMO.....

I disagree

The objects in your home are not worth more than anyone's life, not even a burglar's.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
a reply to: yuppa

I agree.

and you can be a burglar and NOT deserve to be shot IMO.....

I disagree

so you favour a random death penalty for burglary?

originally posted by: AshOnMyTomatoes
The objects in your home are not worth more than anyone's life, not even a burglar's.

...then why would any burglar value their life so low as to try to take them? Dude, I'm tired of victim blaming. If some piece of crap decides "I'm going to take this man's hard earned belongings", THEY are the one stating that those possessions are worth more than a life, not the property owner who decides to defend his own property.

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
so you favour a random death penalty for burglary?

I would not say I favor it, but I would say it is up to the victim (if they catch the thief in the act) to do as their conscience allows.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Even further, if someone is breaking into your house to take your things it implies either a lack of a moral compass or desperation or some combination of the two. That is someone who has the potential to be violent and you can be sure that I will shoot a strange man breaking into my house as a potential threat before I give him a chance to actually harm me or my daughter. If that happens I don't know what they intend but I do know they aren't up to anything good, and their very presence is a threat.

I'm not going to take chances on some ridiculous speculation: "Oh well, I'm sure he's not actually going to hurt us. He's just going to take the T.V. and leave. You're just doing your job after all. Here, have a cookie before you go Good Burglar. I'm sure you're hungry." I understand desperation very well, and I have seen what it can cause people to do and become. I think that the OP has lived a very charmed life and doesn't have a clue.

If you cross that threshold uninvited into MY home you are clearly intent on doing harm and I will kill you before you get a chance to do it. No hesitation. No apologies.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: AshOnMyTomatoes
The objects in your home are not worth more than anyone's life, not even a burglar's.

...then why would any burglar value their life so low as to try to take them?

and yet they still do and this law has made no change in that.......