Caitlyn... Check Yourself!

originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: Darth_Prime

She is only a She,until the drugs stop.Then they revert back to their original sex.

As far as my true colors goes, I really don't care if others agree with me or not,if you have to take a drug to be a certain sex.....your not that sex. I am open about gays and I don't even care if they marry,none of that bothers me. Going through surgery to change what you are,is just beyond reasonable. Its not even a guarantee you will be finally happy with yourself,because you have to learn to except yourself for who you are as a person. There is no surgery that will do that.

Perhaps you should try taking some pill so you can calm down and stop hating people whom you have never met. Prozac, zoloft maybe???

8 pages and no Ice Cube...

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
Let me ask one question and then be done with this topic, returning myself to desired world of comfortable societal norms... Are we being asked to throw away 110 years worth of scientific and medical knowledge which has clearly identified XX as female and XY as male, except in extraordinarily rare cases of chromosomal abnormality simply because somebody "feels" different?

Why is it that in every other realm of modern society, faith, feelings, and the untestable are rejected in favor of science without much in the way of openly acceptable public resistance, but somehow this is different?

Pop culture has decided that XX and XY have "clearly" defined sex. There has never been a long-held clear distinction based on chromosomes in medical science. Even if you remove the issue of transgender people, there are so many variants that don't fit the XX/XY paradigm. You simply cannot narrow down all people to those two sets nor do those two sets always match even the body, let alone the brain.

So I'd ask you: Why is it that you feel compelled to cling to 110 years worth of misconception in the face of newer medical science?

a reply to: heymang

Well you need love...

This has been a very interesting read for me.

Up until about 4 years ago I had no idea what "intersex" was. Transgender sure, I live in lower Manhattan and am quite proud that in my geographically small neighborhood virtually every group is represented. It's one of the reasons I love living here. But intersex? I had never heard of that.

Fast forward 4 years and one of my closest friends is an intersex person. See, I came into that friendship like a blank slate. Sure I'd heard the term hermaphrodite before, and the term androgynous. But I'd never met anyone who was intersex. The reason my friend and I developed such a close friendship was because my lack of knowledge was not held against me. I did not know, and that was the distinction there. It wasn't that I knew and was being an ass, I did not know. I did not know what pronoun was preferred, I didn't always know the proper terminology that might come up in day to day conversation.

But you know what... my friend was understanding to the point of sainthood. I believe that's part of the reason we are so close now is because of those conversations. See, my friend could have said to me "This is who I am, and you don't understand it? You're using the wrong terms? Asshole!" and then never talk to me again. But that's not what happened. And I believe us to be so close because of it.

While reading this thread I see a lot of what did NOT happen with me and my friend. Not every member here comes from the same background. Not every member knows the "correct" thing to say when referring to someone, especially considering how all of this only came into the mainstream so recently. I had no idea what "cisgender" was prior to this thread. I'm not going to apologize for that. You want me to know what it is, explain it to me. And that goes for both sides of these arguments. Take a moment out of your busy time and instead of getting upset at people take the time to point out to them what you'd prefer to be said, or what is less offensive. Whatever it is, you can afford the minute since you're going to spend 20 extra minutes going off on them instead.

If everyone took that time to be like my friend and be patient and understanding stupid comments about other members wouldn't be popping up in this thread and others regarding this topic.

Elevate yourself above the stupidity and show why ATS is the better place to discuss ALL issues. We all deserve that.

a reply to: Djarums

I agree with you, it's about open communication on both sides, as long as it doesn't come from a place of willful ignorance and hate, questions and conversation are the only way we can dispel the untruths.

i'm writing a post about Gender/Gender-Identity/Gender-Expression.. i should be finished later today or tomorrow... it will hopefully be a good place for open discussion

a reply to: Cuervo

Here's the problem, I have yet to see any sort of medical consensus that even remotely rejects the XX/XY model. I see a lot of folks who find that model personally inconvenient rejecting it and claiming medical science has moved past, but if that was true I would think we'd have some published studies and whatnot. It is science, after all, so tests and papers sort of are required.

...or is this a case of wishing real, real hard until you start believing it is so?

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Burd, your spouse. Explain why you love her in XX/XY terms. I mean her specifically as opposed to every female you happen to see. After all, genetically speaking, procreation being the only imperative, then doesn't it follow that you should be in love with every breeding age female?

Or is love something more than genes?

a reply to: burdman30ott6
Let me ask this question: why does this matter? It isn't something you can see, taste, hear, feel or smell. Giving people a lot of credit, I'd say 50% of people don't know if they're XX or XY or which is which. This has been a completely invisible factor in my life and most people's lives so why cling to one thing that only seems to make a difference if you're an athlete?

Your focusing on this one thing shows how limited your knowledge of science and medicine is and probably all you retained from high school biology class. Sex and gender cannot be boiled down to one single characteristic when in fact many other aspects are considered together to paint a complete picture.

I wonder if people like Caitlyn just have multiple personalities, or two souls in one body.

a reply to: rumor21
In Native American culture, transgender folks are known as "two-spirits".

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Cuervo

Here's the problem, I have yet to see any sort of medical consensus that even remotely rejects the XX/XY model. I see a lot of folks who find that model personally inconvenient rejecting it and claiming medical science has moved past, but if that was true I would think we'd have some published studies and whatnot. It is science, after all, so tests and papers sort of are required.

...or is this a case of wishing real, real hard until you start believing it is so?

You don't need to "reject" it. The XX/XY "model" isn't some construct to categorize gender. There are many exceptions to what is common. XX/XY does not determine gender with any more authority than the many other gender markers.

In other words, humanity has never biologically conformed completely with the XX/XY idea of gender. This isn't fluff science and the information is easily available. So it's not a matter of "rejecting" it because there's nothing to reject. People draw their own conclusions about chromosomes but medical science has long accepted the reality of there not being strict binary parameters for gender.

This isn't new.

a reply to: Hefficide

See, your reply runs in opposition (completely) to what was earlier said in this very thread. Suuposedly, this has nothing to do with sexual orientation or sexual attraction.


Is there any understanding or compassion for the folks who are sincerely confused by all of this to the point of indifference and stubborn refusal to change? I'm not an arbitrary change for the sake of change person... so far everything I've seen has seemed to be pretty subjectively arbitrary and yeah, I'm going to naturally resist that.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

I didn't ask why you had sex with your spouse. I asked why you love her. That's key. Because you cannot quantify with science why you love her, you just do.

It's just what it is.

If you can recognize that, then surely you have a base from which to empathize about others and how they might feel regarding gender and sexuality issues. How a person might simply love a person of the same gender simply because they do. Or, extrapolated further, how a person might feel like their body is not in line with their soul.

These things are far more human and sublime than XX/XY. Biology is the study of life, not the study of what it means to be alive and aware.

a reply to: Hefficide

Then we transition into people who believe they have a spirit animal trapped in their body.

Sorry, I see this as being a bit too accepting and accommodating of physiological abnormality combining with psychological issues which have become less strictly classified purely due to avoidance of hurting feelings. Science should be dependent on not making someone feel bad. That's just my take on all of this and I'll now exit the conversation because it's the prudent thing for me to do here.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Burd you know that's a fallacy. Man, you know it. That's like me saying "Cheeseburgers are wrong because if you eat a cheeseburger then cannibalism is next".

C'mon man. Is it so hard to believe that people know themselves better than you do?

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
a reply to: Hefficide

I'm a male lesbian feminist. Accept me now. /rant over.

Well I sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of soaring over the oilfields dropping hot sticky loads on disgusting foreigners. People say to me that a person being a helicopter is Impossible and I’m retarded but I don’t care, I’m beautiful. I’m having a plastic surgeon install rotary blades, 30 mm cannons and AMG-114 Hellfire missiles on my body. From now on I want you guys to call me “Apache” and respect my right to kill from above and kill needlessly. If you can’t accept me you’re a heliphobe and need to check your vehicle privilege. Thank you for being so understanding.

And I'm a surface to air laser guided rocket platform...BOOOOM goodbye Apache...

I hide behind tree lines, good luck.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
So basically anyone who doesn't have gender dysphoria...

Yes. Cis means "on the same side as". Cis and Trans are used in chemistry.

www.glaad.org...

I wonder what we should call people who don't have schizophrenia.

Mentally stable? Schizophrenia is a mental disorder. Transgender is not.

Are we absolutely sure? I mean if a guy walks up and says he feels he's an alien living among humans, most people dismiss him as crazy.

originally posted by: Cuervo

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Cuervo

It does suggest a designation. It is used for those whose gender matches the one they were assigned at birth. The term has been around since the 90's and it's not new. The only reason it seems new to most people is because all things about transgender people that aren't based on Hollywood cliches seem new to most people. The media is becoming educated on the subject and a lot of "new" information is becoming more common knowledge.

And no, "cisgender" does not denote any medical diagnosis or social marginalization. Are you saying we should only apply labels to socially-marginalized people?

In other words, “cisgendered” is a term for people whose doctors got the gender right at birth, and “transgendered” is a term for people whose doctors got the gender wrong at birth?

You are being intentionally obtuse now. It's really not that confusing and all you are doing is rewording it to give it a spin. We can do that with any term. I've explained to you the value of the word and why it is used. Again, not confusing but you are trying to make some sort of clever distinction out of it.

"In other words, "straight" is a term for people who don't like the same sex and "gay" is a term for people who do?! Why that's nonsense and jiggery-pokery! Why not call straight people "normal"?!"

See, it's not so different than many of the terms we use everyday. Do you think "straight" is a useless term when all it means is "not gay"?

I would say you're being just as obtuse.
In other words, “cisgendered” is a term for people whose doctors got the gender right at birth, and “transgendered” is a term for people whose doctors got the gender wrong at birth? This sums it up pretty well even according to some trans people.

originally posted by: Cuervo

originally posted by: Masterjaden
I honestly don't give a # what anybody says. There are two genders, male and female, and it's SOLELY based on what parts you were born with.

Thank you for your educated assessment Dr. Masterjaden. I can't wait to read your peer-reviewed article about how your worldview of something as complex as gender is summed up by vaginas and dicks. I'm sure it's very scientific.

lol gender is not complex. There should not be 20+ "genders" , and that probably is the cause of all the confusion among people who believe there is 20+ genders.