COINTELPRO and what really happened to Tupac.

a reply to: Edumakated

originally posted by: nonjudgementalist
a reply to: Revolution9

Biggie wasn't that heartless I don't think.

You could be right. I would hate to condemn an innocent man. Got to admit though their relationship was as frictional as it gets. Public persona is often an act and reality a different story altogether.

good point about him bragging about banging faith evans. might have pissed someone off.

for instance didn't tupak boast in one of his songs

"get out thevway, yo. get out the way, yo. biggie smalls just got dropped. "

looks like he wasn't the only one.

problems have a habit of straightening themselves out sometimes.

Sometimes there is no conspiracy. Rappers get shot at all the time. In Tupac's case, him and Suge stomped out some crip in the hotel lobby earlier that evening, so it may have been payback for that. Witnesses claim it was a Nation of Islam looking guy who pulled a trigger. So maybe someone sent Bro. Mouzone to do the job.

a reply to: Edumakated

Could have even been one of Tysons goons. Not saying Tyson hated tupac but maybe one of his entourage or just someone there in Vegas from the boxing scene in general who thought tupac showed them disrespect... You never know... They were crazy times and Vegas is a crazy place... Tupac was wise to feel unsure about going... But foolish enough to actually enter the lions den... You have to salute him for being so fearless... In the end he lived by his principles so he became a Martyr in a way... Like I said crazy times.

a reply to: Revolution9

Tupac and biggie were friends and their public feud was the act because they both agreed it was good for business.

originally posted by: nonjudgementalist
a reply to: Revolution9

Tupac and biggie were friends and their public feud was the act because they both agreed it was good for business.

Could be so. Where did you find that information?

It is ok, I found out where you got it.

I've been doing a bit of reading about this today. Crazy, so much money involved, gangs, police corruption. Who knows? Who will probably ever know?

In Time Magazine they reported that,

"Though not proof of their involvement, a number of officers on duty at the party Biggie was leaving at the time of his death were also employed by rival record label Death Row Records as security officers. Which is, incidentally, a violation of LAPD policy."

which was related in released FBI Files.

The FBI also had found evidence of police corruption.

Horrible mess.

There is a 102 page FOIA document covering Tupac

at the FBI Records Vault.

Yes I put the pieces together on this a few years ago and the book by Potash mentioned in the OP was a valuable tool in helping me. Cointellpro murdered 2 Pac. Biggie Smalls was murdered for nothing to cover it up.

A few points to make here that are trival to this case:

Most important - Any minority with a revolutionary mindset or group of that mindset becomes a target of COINTELPRO. His family has a history deep rooted in that mentality, being members of the Black Panthers. That group was one of the main targets going back as far as the 60s.

First, attempts were made to railroad him years before he was fataly shot.

Bad Boy records AND Death Row records were infiltrated/and or working in conjunction with alphabet agency operatives.

A clever scheme was concocted to murder Pac with robbery as the motive but PAC survived multiple gunshot wounds (IIRC it was 5 shots). When that failed, Pac's rage on records resulting from the robbery served as a platform to manipulate a rivalry between the east and west coasts of the hip hop community. Anonymous letters were sent to him during his tenure at Rikers Island that Biggie Smalls was behind the shooting. This would serve as the prime motive for Tupac's death.

FBI agents were present at both 2Pac and Biggie Smalls murders.

A Death Row bodyguard was ordered not to carry his gun that fatal night.

Of course there are more "tips" to this but when looking at all the clues to this story, it's hard not to come to the conclusion that an operation like COINTELPRO was behind this.

originally posted by: TrueMessiah
Yes I put the pieces together on this a few years ago and the book by Potash mentioned in the OP was a valuable tool in helping me. Cointellpro murdered 2 Pac. Biggie Smalls was murdered for nothing to cover it up.

A few points to make here that are trival to this case:

Most important - Any minority with a revolutionary mindset or group of that mindset becomes a target of COINTELPRO. His family has a history deep rooted in that mentality, being members of the Black Panthers. That group was one of the main targets going back as far as the 60s.

First, attempts were made to railroad him years before he was fataly shot.

Bad Boy records AND Death Row records were infiltrated/and or working in conjunction with alphabet agency operatives.

A clever scheme was concocted to murder Pac with robbery as the motive but PAC survived multiple gunshot wounds (IIRC it was 5 shots). When that failed, Pac's rage on records resulting from the robbery served as a platform to manipulate a rivalry between the east and west coasts of the hip hop community. Anonymous letters were sent to him during his tenure at Rikers Island that Biggie Smalls was behind the shooting. This would serve as the prime motive for Tupac's death.

FBI agents were present at both 2Pac and Biggie Smalls murders.

A Death Row bodyguard was ordered not to carry his gun that fatal night.

Of course there are more "tips" to this but when looking at all the clues to this story, it's hard not to come to the conclusion that an operation like COINTELPRO was behind this.

What exactly was Tupac doing that was so "revolutionary" that would cause the government to want him dead? Preaching Thug Life is revolutionary?

a reply to: Edumakated

It's a shame people only know about the often highlighted negative side.
Preaching thug life could've been only a ploy in attempt to reach a broader fan base, as most rappers and hip hop artists are known for doing.

Anyway, this video should adequately answer your question.

a reply to: TrueMessiah

Got anything besides a YouTube video?

originally posted by: pfishy
a reply to: TrueMessiah

Got anything besides a YouTube video?

You guys really kill me sometimes. As soon as you see "Youtube" you're ready to dismiss.
The author of the book in the OP (Josh Potash) is doing the speaking. Obviously you didn't take time to view it. Good grief.

originally posted by: TrueMessiah
a reply to: Edumakated

It's a shame people only know about the often highlighted negative side.
Preaching thug life could've been only a ploy in attempt to reach a broader fan base, as most rappers and hip hop artists are known for doing.

Anyway, this video should adequately answer your question.

Believe me, I am a huge hip hop fan. I grew up on it. Nevertheless, I still don't get this desire to turn Tupac into some kind of martyr and what he did that was so revolutionary that would warrant the Feds being so scared of him that they would try to concoct some JFK like assassination.

I am just asking for some specifics. When Tupac died, he was a big artist, but the reality is that he got bigger AFTER his death and his death actually created this even bigger personality. I'm trying to figure out how Tupac all of a sudden became this revolutionary icon and what specifically warrants this adulteration.

In my mind, he was a prolific writer, even though I think he was mediocre as a lyricist (at least in the technical sense). Yes, he shifted from typical topics to Brenda's Had a Baby and Dear Mama to more introspective songs, but plenty of artist do the same and none of it warrants a Day of the Jackal assassination.

Tupac was a rebel. He didn't seem to give a damn about authority and it made him popular. Fine. But how does that make him this dangerous revolutionary leader similar to say Huey Newton or Fred Hampton? Or other black leaders who really were on the front lines fighting the power so to speak a volatile time? How does Tupac earn being mentioned in the same breath?

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: Rosinitiate

originally posted by: Edumakated

You obviously know nothing about him. A fantastic poet and lyrical genius.

We each have our own opinion, but I always felt he was over rated as an MC. Yes, I think he was a very emotional artist, but face facts. No one walks around quoting Tupac bars. I can't think of one bar from him that make the hair on my arms stand up from the sheer creativity, use of metaphors, similes, etc.

Biggie on the other hand? That is lyrical genius...

"Picture a place that they exist, together...
There has to be a place better than this, in heaven..." ~ Tupac Thugz Mansion


You don't know what you're talking about, and comparing Biggie to Pac is as ludicrous as comparing Drake to Kool G Rap.
Or Lil Wayne to Rakim.
Or Chief Keef to Big Pun.
Or Nelly to Tech N9ne.

Not even close.

In any of those cases.



Just out of interest, what did biggie say that made your hair stand on end?




On topic;
Pac was assassinated. No doubt about it.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: Rosinitiate

originally posted by: Edumakated

You obviously know nothing about him. A fantastic poet and lyrical genius.

We each have our own opinion, but I always felt he was over rated as an MC. Yes, I think he was a very emotional artist, but face facts. No one walks around quoting Tupac bars. I can't think of one bar from him that make the hair on my arms stand up from the sheer creativity, use of metaphors, similes, etc.

Biggie on the other hand? That is lyrical genius...

"Picture a place that they exist, together...
There has to be a place better than this, in heaven..." ~ Tupac Thugz Mansion


You don't know what you're talking about, and comparing Biggie to Pac is as ludicrous as comparing Drake to Kool G Rap.
Or Lil Wayne to Rakim.
Or Chief Keef to Big Pun.
Or Nelly to Tech N9ne.

Not even close.

In any of those cases.



Just out of interest, what did biggie say that made your hair stand on end?




On topic;
Pac was assassinated. No doubt about it.

C'mon man, that is the best you got? Just pick any song off Ready to Die. Tupac is no where near Biggie when it comes to painting a vivid picture lyrically. Biggie had a natural gift of pointing out the small stuff that just really turned his lyrics into visuals. Not too mention his punchline game or his ability to even just simply tell a story. Suicidal Thoughts? Warning?

Tupac was just a brute lyrically. Hat & cat lyrics although he rapped with a lot of emotion and you could hear it in his delivery, but technically he isn't even on my top 50 list. It is like comparing a 70s muscle car to a Ferrari. One goes fast in a straight line, but god for bid you ask it to take a turn.

"I got techniques dripping out my butt cheeks, sleep on my stomach so I don't *** up my sheets..."

I grew up on Rakim, Kool G Rap, BDK, KRS-1, etc. When I listen to an MC I want him to say some sh*t that make me want to stop the tape and press rewind. I want the MC to make some obscure reference and some how tie it back in with a dual meaning. I want metaphors, similes, off the wall creativity, multi-syllabic rhyme flows, etc.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: TrueMessiah
a reply to: Edumakated

It's a shame people only know about the often highlighted negative side.
Preaching thug life could've been only a ploy in attempt to reach a broader fan base, as most rappers and hip hop artists are known for doing.

Anyway, this video should adequately answer your question.

Believe me, I am a huge hip hop fan. I grew up on it. Nevertheless, I still don't get this desire to turn Tupac into some kind of martyr and what he did that was so revolutionary that would warrant the Feds being so scared of him that they would try to concoct some JFK like assassination.

I am just asking for some specifics. When Tupac died, he was a big artist, but the reality is that he got bigger AFTER his death and his death actually created this even bigger personality. I'm trying to figure out how Tupac all of a sudden became this revolutionary icon and what specifically warrants this adulteration.

In my mind, he was a prolific writer, even though I think he was mediocre as a lyricist (at least in the technical sense). Yes, he shifted from typical topics to Brenda's Had a Baby and Dear Mama to more introspective songs, but plenty of artist do the same and none of it warrants a Day of the Jackal assassination.

Tupac was a rebel. He didn't seem to give a damn about authority and it made him popular. Fine. But how does that make him this dangerous revolutionary leader similar to say Huey Newton or Fred Hampton? Or other black leaders who really were on the front lines fighting the power so to speak a volatile time? How does Tupac earn being mentioned in the same breath?

Him being a rebel is what brought this about. A rebel to the system that is.

And it's funny you mention Huey Newton, a prominent Black Panther. Did I mention Tupac had strong family ties to that party? Tupac had been under the radar and was seen as a threat because of his affiliation to this group and because he had a strong influence on black culture through hip hop. The modus operandi is the same for these intelligence agencies, just that the method of delivering these messages by the target is different decades later. Hip hop music would be the outlet for a man who is against the system in todays day and age rather than political marches and blatant shows of activism. Remember Killuminati? This dude was speaking out against the illuminati for Christ sake.


In Oakland, he became a member of the New African Panthers.
As a child, his mother was harassed by the FBI who pressured her employers to fire her.
The more his wealth and fame grew, the more constant attacks were made, and there were a lot of attacks.
A high profile acquaintance of his mother was Geronimo Pratt of the Black Panthers.
Dan Quale got word of Tupac's album Strictly For My ****** and denounced it in a public speech. The record label shelved it for an entire year before Time Warner was finally able to release it.
He had plans to start his own political party after rolling with Death Row records. Whether this would have been successful or not isn't the issue. It's that kind of mentality that poses a problem to these counter intel agencies.

I urge you to do some reading up on the more positive elements instead of the often talked about negativity. You'll see there is more that meets the eye in all of this.

I have no doubt about the assassination of influential people. And 2pac was influential.

That being said, he boot f@#ked a gang member in a hotel lobby and was dead hours later. Did 2pac and his click think that guy would just take it dry and not return to save face.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: Rosinitiate

originally posted by: Edumakated

You obviously know nothing about him. A fantastic poet and lyrical genius.

We each have our own opinion, but I always felt he was over rated as an MC. Yes, I think he was a very emotional artist, but face facts. No one walks around quoting Tupac bars. I can't think of one bar from him that make the hair on my arms stand up from the sheer creativity, use of metaphors, similes, etc.

Biggie on the other hand? That is lyrical genius...

"Picture a place that they exist, together...
There has to be a place better than this, in heaven..." ~ Tupac Thugz Mansion


You don't know what you're talking about, and comparing Biggie to Pac is as ludicrous as comparing Drake to Kool G Rap.
Or Lil Wayne to Rakim.
Or Chief Keef to Big Pun.
Or Nelly to Tech N9ne.

Not even close.

In any of those cases.



Just out of interest, what did biggie say that made your hair stand on end?




On topic;
Pac was assassinated. No doubt about it.

C'mon man, that is the best you got? Just pick any song off Ready to Die. Tupac is no where near Biggie when it comes to painting a vivid picture lyrically. Biggie had a natural gift of pointing out the small stuff that just really turned his lyrics into visuals. Not too mention his punchline game or his ability to even just simply tell a story. Suicidal Thoughts? Warning?

Tupac was just a brute lyrically. Hat & cat lyrics although he rapped with a lot of emotion and you could hear it in his delivery, but technically he isn't even on my top 50 list. It is like comparing a 70s muscle car to a Ferrari. One goes fast in a straight line, but god for bid you ask it to take a turn.

"I got techniques dripping out my butt cheeks, sleep on my stomach so I don't *** up my sheets..."

I grew up on Rakim, Kool G Rap, BDK, KRS-1, etc. When I listen to an MC I want him to say some sh*t that make me want to stop the tape and press rewind. I want the MC to make some obscure reference and some how tie it back in with a dual meaning. I want metaphors, similes, off the wall creativity, multi-syllabic rhyme flows, etc.

Ready to die was a hopeless and depressing Album. I could give a rats arse about Biggies life. Why was that all he would talk about in that album? 2pac spoke for a larger audience not just to the emo "poor me, poor me" crowd that you sound like you belong to. If pac griped about something it was usually followed with hope and overcoming it, not drowning in it.

That lyric you posted was complete nonsense IMO.

Edit to add:

I was a little harsh. 'Me against the world' was pretty self centered and depressing. But it was by far his most popular album.

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
I have no doubt about the assassination of influential people. And 2pac was influential.

That being said, he boot f@#ked a gang member in a hotel lobby and was dead hours later. Did 2pac and his click think that guy would just take it dry and not return to save face.

That was a smokescreen.
To take the heat off of any agency involvement in Tupacs murder, the uncle of the shooter, convicted felon and gang member (Keefe D) who was in the car with Orlando Anderson (the shooter) walked away scott free on federal drug charges for devising a story naming Sean Puffy Combs as the conspirator for Tupac's murder. Problem solved, attention now shifted off of any agency suspected of involvement. Nothing happened at all to P Diddy either. No investigation took place whatsoever. Still, some bought that hook line and sinker.