Dear Atheists: I will prove to you that there is a Creator to the universe. Come debate me.

originally posted by: TheChrome


It's not a question of whether God is unable to prevent evil, he can. It's not a question whether he is malevolent, he isn't. It's that he has established a specific time period for those opposing him to prove their point that we as humans can govern ourselves and live separate from God.

So there is something opposing him/her/it??

Why did he/she/it create that??

How have we done? We have created wars, polluted the earth, and every advancement we make in technology we generally use to our demise rather than our benefit. We cannot end sickness, poverty, or death.

Ah - is this the "free will" argument?

God wants to see what we do with out free will??

From the same link above:

The free will defense is as follows:
1/ Maintaining free will is more important than removing evil.
2/ Altering someone's ability to impact others, in any way, removes their free will.
3/ Thus, an omnipotent omniscient (OO) entity cannot prevent evil without also removing free will.

One might question exactly what makes "free will" so good. Proponents of divine command theory might argue that free will is good because it is a part of God's nature or beliefs, while others might try to make the claim that total freedom really is good. One might wonder why most theists then support any attempts by people or governments to prevent the crimes which God apparently doesn't want to. If free will is so important, why does God allow brainwashing?

This should also count for those who believe in demonic possession, especially if the demons doing the possessing have free will themselves. Why does the free will of the brainwasher matter more than the free will of the victim? Furthermore, "free will" is merely the ability to choose among available options.

The ability to have all options available is not free will but omnipotence. Humans are not able to kill each other by simply wishing it; does the lack of this ability mean that humans do not have free will? There are already restrictions on humans' ability to kill each other.

So, is the current level of ability somehow "optimal"? (Having free will to decide on accomplishing an action deemed evil is not the same as being able to accomplish it)

Furthermore, one may argue that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive:
1/ A truly all-knowing being will know everything that will ever occur in the future before it occurs.
2/ An all-knowing being's knowledge cannot be flawed.
3/ From Items 1 and 2, an all-knowing being will know, in advance, what decisions will be made before a decision is made.
4/ From Item 2, this knowledge must be true.
5/ From Item 3, all decisions have already been made in the all-knowing entity's knowledge before they occur.
6/ From Item 4, nobody can freely make a decision because its result is known in advance. Therefore, free will is mutually exclusive with an omniscient entity.

One of the more effective rebuttals to the argument of Free Will is to ask whether there is free will in heaven. If the answer is "yes", then the next logical question to ask would be "If God can create Heaven with free will AND no sin, why didn't he just do it with this life?"

Which brings us back to questioning the theist idea of omnibenevolence. If the answer is "no", then naturally the question of "why then is free will so valuable?" gets raised.

Your turn again......

a reply to: Grimpachi

does anyone actually believe that he makes more than 300k a year at 17?
no way.

i cant believe people(myself included) are still having a discussion with this dude.
he said he would prove god exists but 50+ pages in and he still has not proven #.

on the other hand, several people have tossed out several links proving a great many things and he still says nope. god

god this and god that

after all these pages i think this dude is probably on some sort of illness
im serious about that

making more than 300k a year as a contractor with employees that make 100k
^^^^bwuahahahahahahahaha NOPE

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
I think you folks need a new term... 'vacuum' suggests the absence of something that exists elsewhere. If you are talking about the state of affairs preceding the Big Bang then there was nothing to be a vacuum *of*.

No matter, no energy, no time, no dimensions, nothing. Null state.

How do you know?

Vacuum means empty or devoid - - as far as I know.

Where did elsewhere come from?

That is the question, isn't it?

vac·u·um

[vak-yoom, -yoo-uhm, -yuhm]

NOUN [PLURAL VAC·U·UMS, VAC·U·A]

1. a space entirely devoid of matter.
2. an enclosed space from which matter, especially air, has been partially removed so that the matter or gas remaining in the space exerts less pressure than the atmosphere (plenum).
3. the state or degree of exhaustion in such an enclosed space.
4. a space not filled or occupied; emptiness; void: The loss left a vacuum in his heart.

In all cases the term 'vacuum' implies there was something to be extracted from. In this case there was nothing. Hence, the difficulty to define something outside the scope outside the reality of our universe.

a reply to: Mugly

I never said I would prove God exists so you are a liar...

Like you have contributed anything here... That is laughable...

I make what I make so I'm the one able to lmao...

I think several here have proven their skulls to be a better example of a vacuum then any portrayed as evidence...

to monkey boy...
you don't get to know anymore personal information about me and or my company...
you have tried to create enough problems for me on this site as if I would give you any chance to do anything more....

a reply to: 5StarOracle

I knew you would say that proves my point goodbye.
Ih and don't lie its a sin.

a reply to: boymonkey74

I don't believe you know much of anything...

Conjecture supposition and outright lies...

And I'm not going anywhere fool...

So you are wrong again...

a reply to: 5StarOracle

yup.
i was wrong. i thought you started the thread.

i know all i need to know too.
i think you are ill.
just an opinion

a reply to: Mugly

I know you are ill...

So deal with that...

Your opinions have proven to hold no merit at any rate...

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Mugly

I know you are ill...

So deal with that...

Your opinions have proven to hold no merit at any rate...

i dont know man.
i dont see many people in this thread agreeing with your nonsense posts.

can i ask a question?
at what moment did you know that god was real? what was it that convinced you?
thanks

a reply to: Mugly

the moment I realized he was Greater than myself...

this thread is about creation not me...

I can guarentee I did not create the universe, I have made no claim to be God...

I see nothing but supposition conjecture and lies in attempt to offer anything to refute what I have said...

aside from the personal attacks against me of course...

And as for all the staring and backslapping you have done for each other well I'm sure you are all rather proud of yourselves...

Lol

originally posted by: 5StarOracle


this thread is about creation not me...



l

so youre not going to answer.?
ok

you wont answer my question cause the thread is about god or a creator

well the thread was about god or a creator back when you decided to tell us you are 17 and a contractor making 300k a year....

so why not answer my direct question?

originally posted by: Willtell

I can’t prove to you what your heart doesn’t see.

All I can say is that one fine day

By the time

You will see

Then it will be too late

There are 4199 religions in the world that believe you are going to hell because you do not believe in their Gods.

Oh well, we are all ending up in hell anyway, you as well, so let's enjoy this lifetime, eh?



And also, evidence is not what you 'see' with your heart. That's just personal belief, not evidence.

a reply to: Mugly

this shows your inability to understand what you read...

I answered you...

the moment I realized he was Greater than me...

this is also something you are incapable of...

You should humble yourself...

And I answered another that's how personal information was offered and for that reason alone...

Perhaps you should read the thread... oh yea that won't matter because you probably won't understand and then make stuff up anyway...

a reply to: Mugly

His intro post, when he was only 12, shows he was a literacy genious for his age.... go have a look.

And I am not taking the mickey, 5staroracle, I wish my sons could write like you at 12!!! I would have said it was written by a man in his 30s or 40s... but what do I know, eh?

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Mugly

this shows your inability to understand what you read...

I answered you...

the moment I realized he was Greater than me...

this is also something you are incapable of...

You should humble yourself...

wow.
your answer is the moment you realized he was greater than you.
hahahahahah
i was hoping you would elaborate.
did you just wake up and realize it? did you witness a miracle?
you didnt answer anything.

and why are you referring to this god as a he?
how can an all knowing forever existing being be a he?
wouldnt 'it' be more appropriate?

originally posted by: Agartha
a reply to: Mugly

His intro post, when he was only 12, shows he was a literacy genious for his age.... go have a look.

And I am not taking the mickey, 5staroracle, I wish my sons could write like you at 12!!! I would have said it was written by a man in his 30s or 40s... but what do I know, eh?

be glad to if you would point me to the page.
i want to go back and read all of his posts cause i missed some of the pages.
this is a long thread and i dont know where he came into it

a reply to: Agartha

thanks I guess...

Dig deeper you will see it's all true...

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
I think you folks need a new term... 'vacuum' suggests the absence of something that exists elsewhere. If you are talking about the state of affairs preceding the Big Bang then there was nothing to be a vacuum *of*.

No matter, no energy, no time, no dimensions, nothing. Null state.

How do you know?

Vacuum means empty or devoid - - as far as I know.

Where did elsewhere come from?

That is the question, isn't it?

In all cases the term 'vacuum' implies there was something to be extracted from. In this case there was nothing. Hence, the difficulty to define something outside the scope outside the reality of our universe.

Actually, NO - - that is not the question.

I did not bring up nothingness. Another poster did.

I stated creation was spontaneous. As in friction, spark, heat.

The OP states he/she can prove a Creator. That is the question.

a reply to: Annee

Nothing can not create friction

Nothing can not create a spark

Nothing can not create heat

Small things are still not nothing...

Nothing is the absence of all things...

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Annee

Nothing can not create friction

Nothing can not create a spark

Nothing can not create heat

Small things are still not nothing...

Nothing is the absence of all things...

nothing can be all knowing
nothing can create a person from a rib bone
nothing can turn water into wine
nothing can rise from the dead