The "Gun Show Loophole" and Other Myths

a reply to: Answer

I don't know what would help. There seems to be no conversation. There seems to be no way out.

Thousands of children alone die by firearm in this country a year, and Congress does nothing. Silence is deafening.

Four people on duty die in Benghazi, and they lose their sh*t. Cops get jumpy because almost everyone and anyone might be carrying or pulling on them.

We live in a world where things just don't make sense to me, and it seems like no one cares. I'm not assigning blame here...just looking to make sense of it all.

originally posted by: HighFive

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: HighFive
Its Shockingly Easy to Buy a Gun Online Without a Background Check

Gun show loophole is not a myth. It's term attributed to "private sellers" that used to be more prevalent in gun shows than they are now. But we live in the Internet age. Sites like Armslist sell tens of thousands of guns each year. A majority of those sales are private sellers. And here's why...

Source quote from high volume online "private seller":

" weighing the costs and benefits of getting a federal firearms license, he decided that given the current law, it made sense for him to sell without one. ' I don't have an FFL, and I was going back and forth about whether I should take that leap. But the way it stands now with the current laws, if I'm not a dealer I don't have to do background checks. If I get my FFL, I'd be required to do background checks."'

What he's doing is "dealing without a license" and that is illegal. I'm sure the ATF would be very interested in meeting the man who made those statements.

So again, there's already a law against that behavior but don't let that stop you from using terms like "loophole" where they don't apply.

The fact remains a person can easily go to ArmsList, or a site like it and purchase a gun from a private seller without a a background check.
Let's call it the private seller loophole then..

Responsible gun owners should not be willfully ignorant to this.

Responsible gun owners are not willfully ignorant at all about this. Many consider it the only way to excercise their right as intended.

That and being able to make your own.

Everything is a loophole to the anti-gun control freaks,everything.


5 years ago I tried to buy a gun from an FFL dealer who has been a friend for 50 years and he would not and could not find a way to sell it without the official forms being filled out with a back ground check.All of his guns have to be accounted for..he bought the guns,they have to be entered into his books and any discrepancy has to be explained to the ATF.They do make periodic checks of inventory and the books.

He risks prison for anything missing.

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
a reply to: Answer

I don't know what would help. There seems to be no conversation. There seems to be no way out.

Thousands of children alone die by firearm in this country a year, and Congress does nothing. Silence is deafening.

Four people on duty die in Benghazi, and they lose their sh*t. Cops get jumpy because almost everyone and anyone might be carrying or pulling on them.

We live in a world where things just don't make sense to me, and it seems like no one cares. I'm not assigning blame here...just looking to make sense of it all.

Before you get too worked up about the statistics, you must understand that anyone under 20 years old is included in that "children" number.

The majority of those are 16-20 year olds who are actively involved in committing crimes.

The only thing mind blowing to me is the fact that the vast majority of gun violence is ignored by the media and Congress but a single "mass shooting" gets everyone in an uproar talking about gun control. A dozen blacks die in a single weekend in one city and nobody bats an eye but 2 white people get shot in a movie theater and everyone loses their minds.

Take a look at this and remember that 16-20 are considered children.

Persons age 18 to 21 were the most
likely to experience a serious violent
crime, and blacks in that age group
were the most vulnerable:
72 victimizations per 1,000 blacks,
50 victimizations per 1,000
Hispanics, and
46 victimizations per 1,000 whites.

Source

originally posted by: MrMasterMinder
a reply to: Answer

Honestly, you guys should just stay out of this argument. You've been fed a ton of propaganda and you really don't have a clue about the REAL situation in the US.

It's getting really old trying to educate you snobs when your mind is made up based on falsified and sensationalized nonsense.

Funny, i was thinking the same thing about you..

I live in the US about 5 months in the year, in NOLA and Biloxi and I have studied at Millsaps College. Maybe you should do the same in my country before you can claim to know what is or isn't propaganda.

If you've lived in NOLA and Jackson, MS you've seen some of the worst that the US has to offer. That is at least partially responsible for your viewpoint.

I grew up in Jackson and I've visited NOLA a few times. Both are horribly crime-ridden cities.

originally posted by: Answer
a reply to: Blue_Jay33


It's a sad statistic but blacks make up 50% of the homicides even though they account for 13% of the population.

Can you actually provide a source that shows 8 thousand of the yearly 16 thousand homicides in the US are are committed by African Americans?

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

originally posted by: Answer
a reply to: Blue_Jay33


It's a sad statistic but blacks make up 50% of the homicides even though they account for 13% of the population.

Can you actually provide a source that shows 8 thousand of the yearly 16 thousand homicides in the US are are committed by African Americans?

Here you go.

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, 52.5% of all homicides from 1980 until 2008 were committed by that group, including about 57% of the firearm-related homicides. There's actually a ton of interesting information in that PDF if you're willing to dig through it.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

originally posted by: Answer
a reply to: Blue_Jay33


It's a sad statistic but blacks make up 50% of the homicides even though they account for 13% of the population.

Can you actually provide a source that shows 8 thousand of the yearly 16 thousand homicides in the US are are committed by African Americans?

Am I the only person on this site that uses Google any time someone posts a statistic?

According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for blacks was almost 8 percentage points higher than whites, and the victim rate 6 times higher. Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of white victims killed by whites, and 93% of black victims killed by blacks.

Source

You'd be amazed what you can learn if you do your own research.

originally posted by: MrMasterMinder
American;s are brought up in a culture of violence

Alas, I wish I could live in a sensual creative world. This hardcore path seems to burn us out.

a reply to: Answer

The wikipedia source is actually wrong in one respect. The offending rate among blacks isn't 8 percentage points higher than whites. Its actually several times higher; 24.7 per 100,000 vs 3.4 per 100,000, respectively, in 2008, and that year wasn't an outlier. You can find that in the link I posted above.

a reply to: vor78

Fair enough. But still, from your link,

In 2008, the homicide victimization rate for blacks (19.6
homicides per 100,000) was 6 times higher than the rate for
whites (3.3 homicides per 100,000)

So just going by the homicide rate of white people only (which was 3.3 people per 100,000), its still over double the homicide rate of all other developed countries. So black (drug related) gang crime can't be entirely blamed for the abnormal homicide rates in the US.

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: MrMasterMinder
a reply to: Answer

Honestly, you guys should just stay out of this argument. You've been fed a ton of propaganda and you really don't have a clue about the REAL situation in the US.

It's getting really old trying to educate you snobs when your mind is made up based on falsified and sensationalized nonsense.

Funny, i was thinking the same thing about you..

I live in the US about 5 months in the year, in NOLA and Biloxi and I have studied at Millsaps College. Maybe you should do the same in my country before you can claim to know what is or isn't propaganda.

If you've lived in NOLA and Jackson, MS you've seen some of the worst that the US has to offer. That is at least partially responsible for your viewpoint.

I grew up in Jackson and I've visited NOLA a few times. Both are horribly crime-ridden cities.

I spent some of my formative years in a rough area.

One of my first memories was getting car jacked for my big wheel on the sidewalk. Kid called me an a$$hole. I had never heard that word.

One story, of a few. Neighborhood had been fairly active, and seemed like things were heated. Pops working on the outboard motor to the boat, but as its getting later, and he won't be done before dark, he puts his pistol in his waistband holster, and gets back to work.

As he is finishing up with the cover a car pulls up on the road and a guy gets out. (Jamaican if that matters to you) He come over and starts BSing about the boat and what not, making small talk. When the conversation stops, he says, "you know, if your gonna be put here in the dark, you gotta be ready."

" I'm ready"

"No I mean REALLY ready." As he said this he opened his vest and reached for a shoulder holster. As he did Pops lifted his shirt and reached for his.


The guy immediately stopped, pops never touched his handle. The Jamaican smiled, pointing his trigger finger, "You're ready!... I got my wife in the car, you want to meet her?"

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: network dude

Operative word here is "ALL", so no to that, but if even 50% are like Trump with six shooter, well you can clearly see the problem in American culture. Incidentally his son is a big game trophy hunter.
Throw in an unhealthy mix of mental illness to even 10% of gun owners, and the problem is self evident.

What I am saying if a gun owner is mentally and emotionally stable, and he doesn't have an attitude of a cowboy/gansta and they keep the guns locked away in a "safe" manner. The gun itself is not the issue.

CULTURE, PERSONAL ATTITUDE, SAFETY, SANITY are the variables.
It seems to me this is impossible to legislate.

I can agree with that. Which brings me back to the last part of my questions. Does the failure of the mental health systems in the US have any bearing on the problems seen with violent crimes? (I really don't have a factual answer, but I suspect it does to a large degree)

But as another recent thread stated, you don't need a gun to be violent. You could attack a cop with a 8" knife and be a UK citizen. Sane, honest, non-violent people don't do things like that. Where is the breakdown that allowed something like that to occur?

a reply to: Subaeruginosa

True, but I haven't made any claim in that regard yet. I was only providing the facts being sought. But yes, offending rate among non-blacks is roughly double that of most western European countries.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: vor78

Fair enough. But still, from your link,

In 2008, the homicide victimization rate for blacks (19.6
homicides per 100,000) was 6 times higher than the rate for
whites (3.3 homicides per 100,000)

So just going by the homicide rate of white people only (which was 3.3 people per 100,000), its still over double the homicide rate of all other developed countries. So black (drug related) gang crime can't be entirely blamed for the abnormal homicide rates in the US.

Nobody said black gang crime was entirely to blame. You simply took that from the facts that were posted.

There are plenty of white gang members and drug dealers, as well. The simple fact is: law-abiding people don't typically snap one day and kill someone. Nearly all murders are committed by someone with a criminal record and a history of violence. Those people are where we should focus our energy because restricting guns won't make them go away. People with a history of violence are already unable to legally buy a gun but it's not stopping them.

Here's an interesting tidbit on the "loopholes" from the Wiki article linked earlier in this thread:

In contrast, a Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) report on “Firearms Use by Offenders” found that only 0.8% of prison inmates reported acquiring firearms used in their crimes "At a gun show," with repeat offenders less likely than first-time offenders to report acquiring firearms from a retail source, gun show or flea market. This 2001 study examined data from a 1997 Department of Justice survey of more than 18,000 federal and state prison inmates in 1,409 State prisons and 127 Federal prisons.[13][14] The remaining 99.2% of inmates reported obtaining firearms from other sources, including "From a friend/family member" (36.8%), "Off the street/from a drug dealer" (20.9%), "From a fence/black market source" (9.6%), "From a pawnshop," "From a flea market," "From the victim," or "In a burglary." 9% of inmates replied "Don't Know/Other" to the question of where they acquired a firearm and 4.4% refused to answer.

Source

The "gun show loophole" nonsense is clearly blown way out of proportion when there is so much trouble tying guns used in crimes to gun shows. It's just another example of going after aspects of the gun culture that won't affect crime rates.

Unfortunately, a lot of gun owners take it personally when a person dislikes guns and they don't take the time to have a civilized conversation to find out why. I've changed several people's minds just by educating them a bit and sticking to facts. It doesn't help the situation if both sides just talk crap about each other like a bunch of children.

I'm sorry to say, but you are wrong. I grew up around guns. I have never seen a gun owner demand that other people own guns. Gun owners would rather only have people who wish to own guns own them. It helps cut back on accidents and save lives. Those who don't own guns however are typically all in on the "people shouldn't be able to buy guns, blah blah blah nonsense" and then refer to the facts the OP posted. Gun owners don't care if you don't want to own a gun, but non gun owning individuals tend to be of the "I don't like guns, they are to dangerous" crowd. This has been an almost universal truth in my experience, even ex gfs and significant others.

originally posted by: chuck258

Unfortunately, a lot of gun owners take it personally when a person dislikes guns and they don't take the time to have a civilized conversation to find out why. I've changed several people's minds just by educating them a bit and sticking to facts. It doesn't help the situation if both sides just talk crap about each other like a bunch of children.

I'm sorry to say, but you are wrong. I grew up around guns. I have never seen a gun owner demand that other people own guns. Gun owners would rather only have people who wish to own guns own them. It helps cut back on accidents and save lives. Those who don't own guns however are typically all in on the "people shouldn't be able to buy guns, blah blah blah nonsense" and then refer to the facts the OP posted. Gun owners don't care if you don't want to own a gun, but non gun owning individuals tend to be of the "I don't like guns, they are to dangerous" crowd. This has been an almost universal truth in my experience, even ex gfs and significant others.

My experience has been the opposite. It depends entirely on how you approach the issue.

I've converted several anti-gun individuals over to pro-gun. I've converted some to at least being open minded about it. I've rarely encountered an anti-gun person who wasn't questioning their beliefs after a few minutes of discussion.

There are some who don't want to hear anything that's counter to their beliefs but I don't associate with those people because they have a mental disorder. Refusing to hear your opposition is a clear sign of weak principles.

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

Well, you tried... You're a good example of the people who live outside the US that have been fed way too much propaganda. You folks are more worried about "gun violence" in America than we are because you're convinced that it's a huge problem.

Hi Answer, I thought I would jump in here because to a large degree I agree with Sub and their statements.

I have nothing against my American friends (I'm Canadian) but you need to compare murder and death rates of other first world nations and then look at it in a statistically meaningful fashion - for instance, deaths by firearms per 100,000 people. Not cherry pick individual cases (38 dead in Tunisia.. really?).

Available information is all over the internet but in this case I will use the following:

www.humanosphere.org...

It really is a fact (supported by hard data) that there is more gun violence in the US than most other places in the world (caveat.. where data is available). I am not saying that your right to bear arms is wrong, I'm just saying that the data shows that it is not necessarily making things safer.

The US has higher rates of homicides from guns than Pakistan. At 4.5 deaths per 100,000 people, the US rates aren’t much lower than gun homicide rates in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (5.2 deaths per 100,000 people). Annually, the US has about two fewer gun homicide deaths per 100,000 people than Iraq, which has 6.5 deaths per 100,000.

The above graphic shows homicides in 2010 and compares the US to five other countries in terms of homicides per 100,000 caused by firearms.



This graphic compares firearm homicides among first world countries.

It actually may be a case where people are safer in the US with a gun, cause, well, if someone is going to shoot at you, might as well shoot back.

Anyway, I see so many nut jobs and road rage incidents even here at home, that I quiver to think what would happen if they also had easy access to a firearm; it seems to me anyway, that many are already close to having a mental meltdown.

Sorry, I did not want to discredit your post but propaganda goes both ways and to get around that, one must try and find data to either support or refute their view.

a reply to: EarthPilgrim

While the overall point of the article is true, the statistician in me is going to have to call the actual data into question. The charts indicate about a 4.5 per 100,000 rate of homicides related to a firearm. In order for that to be true, in a population of 310 million, there would need to be approximately 14,000 yearly homicides involving a firearm. Yet according to the FBI, there were less than 8,800, which equates to about 2.84 per 100,000.

Now, understand, I'm not attacking you personally, and I agree, this is still too high, but that I can't let that sneak by without a correction, because its a major error. And just to edit and add, I had initially thought that the author did that intentionally, but as I read further, I can see that they probably had a bad source.