The "Gun Show Loophole" and Other Myths

originally posted by: gentledissident
a reply to: HighFive
Wow, that's pretty bad. Having dealt with a large number of people from all walks of life, I can tell you that most people are crazy. From what I understand about the background check, most aren't crazy enough to flunk it. We need psych evaluations as well. A federal database does seem Orwellian, but I bet law enforcement appreciates having a heads up. Guns are dangerous toys. Regulation is an absolute necessity. It even seems like a positive event and patriotic duty to be cleared and registered for a gun. Gun owners need to prove that they have a heightened responsibility and the ability to remain calm and focused when holding firearms. I see no reason to outlaw guns, but I see plenty of reasons to heavily regulate them.

I hope the theater is packing when I go see Star Wars 7 in the off chance some nut job pulls out a gun. I would love a shooter to be mowed down before he administers all the possible pain and death. I'd just catch the next showing.

Most mass shooters have a history of psychological issues so they've had "psychological evaluations" before and it did nothing to stop them from getting guns from family members, friends, etc. Adam Lanza killed his own mother and took her guns so the simple fact is: you can't stop a crazy person from getting their hands on a weapon. If you keep the mentally ill person from getting a gun, do you also extend that restriction to their family and friends? It won't do a damn bit of good.

The issue is this: the vast VAST majority of people with various psychological disorders will never murder someone. It is impossible to determine which ones will one day snap and which will not. Lumping all people with a certain disorder together and denying them their rights because of a statistical anomaly is discrimination of the highest order.

What you're advocating is like saying "black people commit the highest number of murders so we shouldn't allow black people to buy guns." Do you see how bad that sounds when you apply it differently?

originally posted by: HighFive

originally posted by: Sunwolf

originally posted by: HighFive
Its Shockingly Easy to Buy a Gun Online Without a Background Check

You are quoting"Mayors against illegal guns"?Like they never ,ever lie,right?Geez,you can do better than Bloomberg and Mother Jones.What a complete load of manure!

I used a business insider source, but It wasn't the only article on the subject.
Try this, Google - online guns no background check
I'm simply pointing out that they happen everyday

Are you arguing that guns aren't frequently sold without background checks online?
Or saying there shouldn't be background checks at all?
Since you only attacked my source I can't really tell if our opinions on differ on gun regulations.
I'm a hunter and have a concealed weapons permit, but support universal background checks.

Let me clarify something about the "buying guns online without a background check" claim.

You can sell a gun to someone in the same state using an online site. If you sell to someone out of state, the gun must go through a licensed dealer.

If someone can provide statistics proving that murderers are exploiting this "loophole" to get their guns, I'll be more than happy to view them. Every bit of information I've seen does not make that claim. Mass shooters have bought their guns at local stores, had them purchased by someone else, or got them from a family member. The idea of universal background checks is another example of imagining how to "fix" the problem without logically thinking it through.

ops double post

originally posted by: seaswine

Basically my point here is, while your facts are well versed and informative, there are towns were you can walk into a gun show and buy up as many rifles as you please. (assuming laws in my area have not changed in the last 18months)

No, there are not. The background check and paperwork requirement is federal law.

If you bought multiple guns without paperwork, you bought them from a private seller or you found a dealer who broke the law.

I'm a licensed dealer. Trust me, state law has NOTHING to do with the paperwork and background check required of every dealer.

It takes 5 seconds on Google to figure that out.

An interesting thread for sure, but I am reminded of the comparison made between Canada and America in the movie Bowling for Columbine by Micheal Moore. He ended up with an interesting statement at the end, he said guns weren't so much the problem as was the culture, basically in America it's shoot first talk later, in Canada it was talk first and if that fails then shoot. So Attitude. It's not so much the weapon but the person that owns the weapon. Statistically it was found a surprising amount of Canadians owned guns for hunting purposes.

Basically many Americans have the old west cowboy attitude, look at that dentist from America that just shot Cecil the lion, bow & arrow style then with a gun.

So I say to the OP not the gun but the culture, sorry but it is what it is.

So then if America refuses to change it's cowboy /gansta type culture/attitude then the government might be forced to change it with new laws and restrictions ? Yes the Constitution gives citizens the right to bear arms, but it also gives people to the right to life and liberty, a culture has arisen in America that is taking that away from both ends of the spectrum, it's an evil catch 22.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

So you think all Americans are like John Wayne and have a shoot em up attitude? Are you aware of how many gun owners there are in the US and how many gun crimes are committed?

Are you aware of the unique correlation with most of the mass shootings in the US? Do you feel that a failure in the mental health system has any bearing at all on those incidents?

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: MrMasterMinder

So am I to assume YOU are the official source for that?
please link said report.

Yawn ,okies.. en.wikipedia.org...

I'm all for coloring outside the lines and thing that chipping the gun to the owner might not be a bad idea. Ship the chips separately too so it's twice as hard to smuggle/illegally trade.

Point being, there is something that's out of control in this country. Not sure that it's something that's even necessarily going to be fixed by legislation.

Also, I'm pretty sure that was me that day last year who walked into the gun show at Jim Miller Park with $400 and walked out with a handgun, no ID needed.

Wrong thread?

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Unfortunately, no one wants to address the biggest cause of murder in the US:

Drug-related urban black-on-black violence.

It's a sad statistic but blacks make up 50% of the homicides even though they account for 13% of the population.

originally posted by: MrMasterMinder

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: MrMasterMinder

So am I to assume YOU are the official source for that?
please link said report.

Yawn ,okies.. en.wikipedia.org...

You might want to read that source and actually understand the information.

The report says that gun shows were second to corrupt FFL dealers. Corrupt means they are breaking the law.

It says that the main source of trafficking at gun shows are "straw purchasers." This means that someone who is legally able to buy a gun purchases one for someone who can't legally own one. The dealer has no way to know if that is happening, so you have a perfectly legal process being turned INTO an illegal process and there's no way to prevent that. Straw purchases happen at gun stores all the time so it is certainly not unique to gun shows.

So yet again, there are laws being broken to make these things happen. Tell me again how MORE laws will stop people from breaking the law?

a reply to: Answer

Honestly, you guys should just stay out of this argument. You've been fed a ton of propaganda and you really don't have a clue about the REAL situation in the US.

It's getting really old trying to educate you snobs when your mind is made up based on falsified and sensationalized nonsense.

Funny, i was thinking the same thing about you..

I live in the US about 5 months in the year, in NOLA and Biloxi and I have studied at Millsaps College. Maybe you should do the same in my country before you can claim to know what is or isn't propaganda.

a reply to: network dude

Operative word here is "ALL", so no to that, but if even 50% are like Trump with six shooter, well you can clearly see the problem in American culture. Incidentally his son is a big game trophy hunter.
Throw in an unhealthy mix of mental illness to even 10% of gun owners, and the problem is self evident.

What I am saying if a gun owner is mentally and emotionally stable, and he doesn't have an attitude of a cowboy/gansta and they keep the guns locked away in a "safe" manner. The gun itself is not the issue.

CULTURE, PERSONAL ATTITUDE, SAFETY, SANITY are the variables.
It seems to me this is impossible to legislate.

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
I'm all for coloring outside the lines and thing that chipping the gun to the owner might not be a bad idea. Ship the chips separately too so it's twice as hard to smuggle/illegally trade.

Point being, there is something that's out of control in this country. Not sure that it's something that's even necessarily going to be fixed by legislation.

Also, I'm pretty sure that was me that day last year who walked into the gun show at Jim Miller Park with $400 and walked out with a handgun, no ID needed.

Wrong thread?

If you walked out of a gun show with a handgun and didn't provide ID, fill out paperwork, etc then you bought from a private seller.

You could have done the same through any number of other channels so, for the umpteenth time, there is no "loophole."

How would "chipping" prevent criminals from using the millions of guns already available? How would chipping stop them from stealing guns? I'm just curious how you think chipping would help.

a reply to: Answer

Private seller sounds kind of like a loophole to me.

Not saying change would be fast or easy or please everyone, but there's clearly a very multi-layered issue in this country regarding guns, and a conversation has to start at some point.

That's all.

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: HighFive
Its Shockingly Easy to Buy a Gun Online Without a Background Check

Gun show loophole is not a myth. It's term attributed to "private sellers" that used to be more prevalent in gun shows than they are now. But we live in the Internet age. Sites like Armslist sell tens of thousands of guns each year. A majority of those sales are private sellers. And here's why...

Source quote from high volume online "private seller":

" weighing the costs and benefits of getting a federal firearms license, he decided that given the current law, it made sense for him to sell without one. ' I don't have an FFL, and I was going back and forth about whether I should take that leap. But the way it stands now with the current laws, if I'm not a dealer I don't have to do background checks. If I get my FFL, I'd be required to do background checks."'

What he's doing is "dealing without a license" and that is illegal. I'm sure the ATF would be very interested in meeting the man who made those statements.

So again, there's already a law against that behavior but don't let that stop you from using terms like "loophole" where they don't apply.

The fact remains a person can easily go to ArmsList, or a site like it and purchase a gun from a private seller without a a background check.
Let's call it the private seller loophole then..

Responsible gun owners should not be willfully ignorant to this.

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
a reply to: Answer

Private seller sounds kind of like a loophole to me.

Not saying change would be fast or easy or please everyone, but there's clearly a very multi-layered issue in this country regarding guns, and a conversation has to start at some point.

That's all.

The ability of a person to sell their possessions to another person is not a loophole.

I keep hearing "we must have the conversation" but no one is able to propose something that would actually help. That line is used to claim that gun owners aren't willing to compromise.

Show me something that will help and I'll be glad to have the conversation. Let's start with addressing the drug-related urban violence first and why so many people who commit murder are repeat offenders who shouldn't be on the street. Those are the actual causes of the violence that no one wants to address. It's so much easier to go after the tool instead of the source.

originally posted by: HighFive

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: HighFive
Its Shockingly Easy to Buy a Gun Online Without a Background Check

Gun show loophole is not a myth. It's term attributed to "private sellers" that used to be more prevalent in gun shows than they are now. But we live in the Internet age. Sites like Armslist sell tens of thousands of guns each year. A majority of those sales are private sellers. And here's why...

Source quote from high volume online "private seller":

" weighing the costs and benefits of getting a federal firearms license, he decided that given the current law, it made sense for him to sell without one. ' I don't have an FFL, and I was going back and forth about whether I should take that leap. But the way it stands now with the current laws, if I'm not a dealer I don't have to do background checks. If I get my FFL, I'd be required to do background checks."'

What he's doing is "dealing without a license" and that is illegal. I'm sure the ATF would be very interested in meeting the man who made those statements.

So again, there's already a law against that behavior but don't let that stop you from using terms like "loophole" where they don't apply.

The fact remains a person can easily go to ArmsList, or a site like it and purchase a gun from a private seller without a a background check.
Let's call it the private seller loophole then..

Responsible gun owners should not be willfully ignorant to this.

Gun owners aren't ignorant to this.

I'll say this again, since you missed it and you keep harping on the same point: Find me some statistics that say crimes are being committed by people who get their guns through Armslist and similar sites.

You can call it a problem all you want but if you can't provide any data to back up that claim, you're just imagining an issue where there isn't one.

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